Desperate for Dollars - Manufacturer's Absurd Claims, Specs & Science

[lovinthehd]

I said power amps:

https://www.anthemav.com/products-current/type=amplifier/model=mca-525/page=specs

Most AVRs are lacking... and the specs typically show it as you very correctly point out.

If you want to get serious about home AV, you need good power amps. The notion of excellent AVRs are, in anything under $5k, an illusion... even though they might sound quite nice in a modest space if used in moderation.

We're talking avrs before this so didn't notice you snuck in one of their power amps. My little Crown XLS1500 for $300 is more powerful than that overpriced $3500 hunk of iron All depends on what you need in the way of amplification. Most power amps have better rating/spec schemes than avrs, tho.

 

[GrimSurfer]

We're talking avrs before this so didn't notice you snuck in one of their power amps. My little Crown XLS1500 for $300 is more powerful than that overpriced $3500 hunk of iron All depends on what you need in the way of amplification. Most power amps have better rating/spec schemes than avrs, tho.

So we're coming closer to agreeing on a major point: All in one AVRs don't offer as much as an AV Controller matched to decent power amps.

This is demonstrated by the ridiculous specs and limitations of AVRs... continuous power rated in 1 or 2 channels, use of extraordinary means to show "big" power ratings, inability to drive difficult loads, etc. It's sham marketing. They only people who accept it are those who don't know any better or wish to fool themselves into thinking otherwise.

The exact same thing can be said about most integrated amps, though finding ones of high quality aren't that difficult outside of big box stores.

 

[lovinthehd]

Since we started with an Onkyo, here's Onkyo's 5000R power amp spec https://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=M-5000R&class=Amplifier&source=prodClass

 

[lovinthehd]

So we're coming closer to agreeing on a major point: All in one AVRs don't offer as much as an AV Controller matched to decent power amps.

This is demonstrated by the ridiculous specs and limitations of AVRs... continuous power rated in 1 or 2 channels, use of extraordinary means to show "big" power ratings, inability to drive difficult loads, etc.

The exact same thing can be said about most integrated amps, though finding ones of high quality aren't that difficult outside of big box stores.

Who ever said it did? That's silly audiophile nonsense trying to compare unlike things. Not to mention price. An avr is far more price friendly than an equivalent pre-pro even though capabilities can be on a par (minus the amp section). A pre-pro and power amp combo costs significantly more than an avr. If you really need massive amounts of power, then a separate dedicated power amp can be a great way to go. Most people simply don't need them. Impressing "audiophiles" isn't that important

 

[GrimSurfer]

Since we started with an Onkyo, here's Onkyo's 5000R power amp spec https://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=M-5000R&class=Amplifier&source=prodClass

Looks pretty decent...

My initial post wasn't hacking on Onkyo as much as it was highlighting when manufacturers employ absurd measures in order to show big numbers.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Hey! Just earned another stupid rating from @Out-Of-Phase. Excellent!

I just love it when he uses his immense intellectual capacity and quick-witted repartee to make a point by clicking on a button.

 

[lovinthehd]

@Out-Of-Phase is that really necessary?

We were talking mass market advertised avrs to begin with...they are what they are. Do tvs get any better effort on technical specs?

 

[GrimSurfer]

Who ever said it did? That's silly audiophile nonsense trying to compare unlike things. Not to mention price. An avr is far more price friendly than an equivalent pre-pro even though capabilities can be on a par (minus the amp section). A pre-pro and power amp combo costs significantly more than an avr. If you really need massive amounts of power, then a separate dedicated power amp can be a great way to go. Most people simply don't need them. Impressing "audiophiles" isn't that important

It pays to play.

WRT amplification of five or more channels, I have read at least five posts in the past week from people who are unhappy with their cheap gear's performance. The industry thrives on selling over and over again to people climbing the performance ladder.

It would be far less expensive to buy high quality to begin with... or after one's first brush with mediocrity.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

@Out-Of-Phase is that really necessary?

Yes

 

[lovinthehd]

It pays to play.

WRT amplification of five or more channels, I have read at least five posts in the past week from people who are unhappy with their cheap gear's performance. The industry thrives on selling over and over again to people climbing the performance ladder.

It would be far less expensive to buy high quality to begin with... or after one's first brush with mediocrity.

Five whole posts, and posts are usually only made when unhappy. Wow. Out of millions sold. Then there are people who expect top end performance on the cheap. It all depends on use....most people would not be served well by over-purchasing something. Especially as to how fast some of the gear can go obsolete for handling video (and sometimes audio too).

 

[GrimSurfer]

Five whole posts, and posts are usually only made when unhappy. Wow. Out of millions sold. Then there are people who expect top end performance on the cheap. It all depends on use....most people would not be served well by over-purchasing something. Especially as to how fast some of the gear can go obsolete for handling video (and sometimes audio too).

Well, I don't read everything that's written on AH.

You make a good point about obsolescence. Amps have very long product lives. AVRs have very short ones. So it makes sense to go the AV controller route...

 

[m3incorp]

I'm going to be pretty straight to the point with what I have to say. This thread is pretty much just for the OP. I think it is pointless. Almost every manufacturer of any product highlights what they consider to be the best marketing....and somewhere in there is the truth. You started with an example of Onkyo. The first rating they stated is pretty much in-line with what all the other receiver manufacturers are considering the standard. The second power rating might be true but has no meaning due to the requirements to obtain the rating. It pays for the buyer to educate themselves before buying ANY product.

OP what exactly is the intent of your thread? I'm sure you do realize that there are a lot more people that just buy to buy and no research...those same people are most likely not on audio/video forums.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, I don't read everything that's written on AH.

You make a good point about obsolescence. Amps have very long product lives. AVRs have very short ones. So it makes sense to go the AV controller route...

It's more about general mass market consumption I think. Those of us into this stuff will usually buy appropriately I think. Those that lightly research or don't understand how to put things together (like an avr/amp with appropriate speakers to drive to the levels needed), meh. My oldest avr is from 2004 but still around and put to some use here and there. My next oldest is from 2007 (the avr itself, I bought it a couple years ago for my workshop system),then 2011, then 2012. All in use in various systems mind you, some purchased for expansion of capabilities as well as additional rooms. I did have a Pioneer fail in the middle there. Are they the most durable units these days what with the problems hdmi/video can bring on outside basic audio functions? Surely not, but they still are good tools for the jobs I need them for. I do have some separates, but they're 2ch...it just didn't seem to make sense to go into the av area like I did with a full on pre-pro/amp and I think I made the right decision myself.

 

[CB22]

Starting this as a thread for ppl to post links and comments on products that manufacturers decided to market with silly claims, specs, or pseudoscience:

So my old Klipsch 280Fs had a "Power HandlingContinuous: 150 W + Peak: 600 W." If 600 watts got into these speakers half the neighborhood would be deaf.

 

[lovinthehd]

Forgot you said psuedoscience and that's a lot more fun so how about a good ridiculous one praised by The Absolute Sound (Absolutely ridiculous, is what they should call themselves). https://www.synergisticresearch.com/acoustics/passive/uef-acoustic-dots/

ps You can't go wrong with psuedoscience at SR....they even made acoustic paint available! Quantum! LOL

 

[GrimSurfer]

It's more about general mass market consumption I think. Those of us into this stuff will usually buy appropriately I think. Those that lightly research or don't understand how to put things together (like an avr/amp with appropriate speakers to drive to the levels needed). My oldest avr is from 2004 but still around and put to some use here and there. My next oldest is from 2007 (the avr itself, I bought it a couple years ago for my workshop system),then 2011, then 2012. All in use in various systems mind you, some purchased for expansion of capabilities as well as additional rooms. I did have a Pioneer fail in the middle there. Are they the most durable units these days what with the problems hdmi/video can bring on outside basic audio functions? Surely not, but they still are good tools for the jobs I need them for. I do have some separates, but they're 2ch...it just didn't seem to make sense to go into the av area like I did with a full on pre-pro/amp and I think I made the right decision myself.

All good points. Were we to do things over again, wouldn't it have made more economic and acoustic sense to buy an entry level system until funds become available for a reasonable AV controller and some power amps? I'd wager that the costs would be the same as 5x AVRs.

After that, one could remain on the cutting edge by replacing AV controllers every few years because, generally speaking, decent power amps last for many years without requiring replacement.

 

[GrimSurfer]

So my old Klipsch 280Fs had a "Power HandlingContinuous: 150 W + Peak: 600 W." If 600 watts got into these speakers half the neighborhood would be deaf.

Maybe. But consider that you'd be able to put 150 W into them, with brief peaks to 600W before the voice coils burned up.

Also, hearing damage would be unlikely further than 50 feet or so because their spl would drop by ~3 dB every few feet. 150W continuous, 600W peak isn't as much power as many might think... especially in a very large or free space.

 

[lovinthehd]

All good points. Were we to do things over again, wouldn't it have made more economic and acoustic sense to buy an entry level system until funds become available for a reasonable AV controller and some power amps? I'd wager that the costs would be the same as 5x AVRs.

After that, one could remain on the cutting edge by replacing AV controllers every few years because, generally speaking, decent power amps last for many years without requiring replacement.

Sounds more like hindsight thinking in a way. Maybe if I could tell what my future was for some of the purchases (I do tend to keep gear a long time tho). Heck wasn't even sure where I'd live some of that time. I'm done moving now and can expand thus some of the newer gear. Plus part of that time was some of the bigger changes in systems for both video and audio. I still have 7 power amps in the house so can use such if I need to but now avrs alone do just fine for my uses (some are used in 2ch gear, some for subs now). It's also different in dealing with living rooms or bedrooms vs a purpose built home theater. Lots of factors.

 

[lovinthehd]

So my old Klipsch 280Fs had a "Power HandlingContinuous: 150 W + Peak: 600 W." If 600 watts got into these speakers half the neighborhood would be deaf.

LOL speaker wattage ratings in general aren't very useful except as melting points. You'd likely quit way before you got to 150w continuous in any case let alone the 4x (instead of the usual 2x) peak....which is a bit of advertising tweakage right there!

 

[GrimSurfer]

Sounds more like hindsight thinking in a way. Maybe if I could tell what my future was for some of the purchases (I do tend to keep gear a long time tho). Heck wasn't even sure where I'd live some of that time. I'm done moving now and can expand thus some of the newer gear. Plus part of that time was some of the bigger changes in systems for both video and audio. I still have 7 power amps in the house so can use such if I need to but now avrs alone do just fine for my uses (some are used in 2ch gear, some for subs now). It's also different in dealing with living rooms or bedrooms vs a purpose built home theater. Lots of factors.

Maybe, but I see forums as an ideal place to pass on such observations to those interested in considering them.

I suspect that many readers are mid-life audio nuts who see this as a long term hobby. So pointing them in a more logical direction could be very helpful.