Desperate for Dollars - Manufacturer's Absurd Claims, Specs & Science

[GrimSurfer]

Starting this as a thread for ppl to post links and comments on products that manufacturers decided to market with silly claims, specs, or pseudoscience:

My nomination for silly claims was spotted by the eagle eye of lovinthehd (emphasis added by me):

Well I guess there's an example of even the manufacturer's page isn't always the best for reading spec... The overview stating 110wpc into 8ohm, 220wpc into 6 ohm, LOL! Those are definitely not on the same basis....but if you dig into the specs you'll see:
110 W/Ch (8 Ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, FTC)
220 W/Ch (6 Ohms, 1 kHz, 10% THD, 1 channel driven).

It seems to me Onkyo was trying really hard to show a doubling of power output. So they narrowed the frequency to a single value, ignored a large distortion figure, and drove one channel only to get the results they wanted. I hope the effort was worth it, because any semi literate audioholic reading such specs would likely run away.

 

[lovinthehd]

There's this one too https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/has-the-ftc-failed-consumer-audio-regarding-amplifier-power-claims.110893/

 

[Swerd]

I think you're making too much of a fuss over this. The manufacturer clearly states that the AVR in question is rated as:

110 W/Ch (8 Ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, FTC)​

This is the standard type of conservative power rating as required by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC).

You'd be better off ignoring that other rating, and I use the term 'rating' loosely:

220 W/Ch (6 Ohms, 1 kHz, 10% THD, 1 channel driven).​

As long as the manufacturer shows the FTC rating, it is complying with the FTC's regulations. A buyer can compare it to the FTC ratings of other receivers without confusion.

Caveat emptor – Let the buyer beware – always applies.

 

[GrimSurfer]

People selling such gear might think me a bit of a bore, but I believe that one of the purposes of a forum is to inform... in this case about manufacturers' (ahem) liberal approach to performance measurement.

 

[lovinthehd]

Doubt many people manufacturing the gear let alone selling it are reading your post, tho

 

[davidscott]

Pretty respectable running 2 8 ohm speakers. I wonder what the true power measures into 5 or 7 speakers? I would imagine it would be much less and the very fact that it has issues with 6 (let alone 4) ohm speakers is a little troubling.

 

[lovinthehd]

Pretty respectable running 2 8 ohm speakers. I wonder what the true power measures into 5 or 7 speakers? I would imagine it would be much less and the very fact that it has issues with 6 (let alone 4) ohm speakers is a little troubling.

Don't see from the spec it's going to have issues at 6 ohm partiularly. ACD ratings still aren't that meaningful but likely that avr will do no worse than others (Onkyo 777).

 

[davidscott]

Sorry maybe not issues per say but the distortion is pretty high driving 6 ohm loads.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry maybe not issues per say but the distortion is pretty high driving 6 ohm loads.

It's just a spec, it doesn't mean that except at that power level the THD is so high. Look at a typical distortion to power graph in a bench test as to how the distortion vs power looks from low wattage to high wattage....push any amp hard enough and will get pretty high THD at the top end....

 

[davidscott]

It's just a spec, it doesn't mean that except at that power level the THD is so high. Look at a typical distortion to power graph in a bench test as to how the distortion vs power looks from low wattage to high wattage....push any amp hard enough and will get pretty high THD at the top end....

Agreed but not even being rated into 4 ohms is a little disturbing as there are more than a few speakers that do drop to 4 ohms. And the 6 ohm rating is 1 channel driven not 2. Anyway like you said its probably not going to be an issue at all if the receiver is not driven hard.

 

[lovinthehd]

Agreed but not even being rated into 4 ohms is a little disturbing as there are more than a few speakers that do drop to 4 ohms. And the 6 ohm rating is 1 channel driven not 2. Anyway like you said its probably not going to be an issue at all if the receiver is not driven hard.

Still, normally the difference in a typical avr rating between 8 ohm and 6 ohm is not double (theoretically that would at least take to 4 ohm to double). They're simply not comparable spec in this case between 8 and 6 ohm since they're different basis....the 6 ohm has obviously been chosen by the marketing department to impress guys. Good luck on finding an avr these days actually rated for 4 ohm (despite being able to handle a 4 ohm load). These aren't power amps....get a power amp if you want good spec down to even better, 2 ohm.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Doubt many people manufacturing the gear let alone selling it are reading your post, tho

Don't care about them... do care about buyers/AH readers.

 

[lovinthehd]

Maybe new AH readers, most here are quite aware of how the spec game works I think....

 

[GrimSurfer]

It's just a spec, it doesn't mean that except at that power level the THD is so high. Look at a typical distortion to power graph in a bench test as to how the distortion vs power looks from low wattage to high wattage....push any amp hard enough and will get pretty high THD at the top end....

Distortion graphs I've seen look like a flattened fish hook; a bit high to start, sloping downward to the max power point, then rising sharply.

Distortion usually gets high when you over drive it. That's why manufacturers usually quote THD at full power... the number is typically lower.

 

[lovinthehd]

Distortion graphs I've seen look like a flattened fish hook; a bit high to start, sloping downward to the max power point, then rising sharply.

Distortion usually gets high when you over drive it. That's why manufacturers usually quote THD at full power... the number is typically lower.

How do you differentiate between over driving it and simply where you think the volume dial is at "full power"?

 

[GrimSurfer]

How do you differentiate between over driving it and simply where you think the volume dial is at "full power"?

Well, a good amp will have low distortion at maximum rated power. That's my point.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Good luck on finding an avr these days actually rated for 4 ohm (despite being able to handle a 4 ohm load). These aren't power amps....get a power amp if you want good spec down to even better, 2 ohm.

All Anthem multi channel power amps are rated to drive 4 ohm loads and have power ratings in RMS for all channels driven. They even publish power output down to 2 ohms.

Are they expensive? Well, they cost more than than most of the junk being foisted onto consumers. The entry level ones are about twice as much as an AVR. But they have the specifications needed for effortless multichannel operation *thru an AVR*. And they deliver.

PS. Not an Anthem owner, but must give credit where it is due.

 

[lovinthehd]

All Anthem power amps are rated to drive 4 ohm loads and have power ratings in RMS for all channels driven. They even publish power output down to 2 ohms.

Are they expensive? Well, they cost more than the $1500 Best Buy Onkyos, Marantz, Yamahas. The entry level ones are about twice as much. But they have the specifications needed for effortless multichannel operation. And they deliver.

PS. Not an Anthem owner, but must give credit where it is due.

Typical boutique unit pricing, and ARC is nice, but bench testing doesn't generally show the Anthems to be much different power wise that I've seen. Here's the datasheet for the 520/720/1120....no 4 ohm ratings. https://www.anthemav.com/downloads/MRX-1120-720-520_Datasheet.pdf

 

[lovinthehd]

Here's a bench test for the Anthem 1120 (top of the line) https://www.soundandvision.com/content/anthem-mrx-1120-av-receiver-review-test-bench
Here's my Denon 4520 https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4520ci-av-receiver-test-bench

 

[GrimSurfer]

Typical boutique unit pricing, and ARC is nice, but bench testing doesn't generally show the Anthems to be much different power wise that I've seen. Here's the datasheet for the 520/720/1120....no 4 ohm ratings. https://www.anthemav.com/downloads/MRX-1120-720-520_Datasheet.pdf

I said power amps:

https://www.anthemav.com/products-current/type=amplifier/model=mca-525/page=specs

Most AVRs are lacking... and the specs typically show it as you very correctly point out.

If you want to get serious about home AV, you need good power amps. The notion of excellent AVRs are, in anything under $5k, an illusion... even though they might sound quite nice in a modest space if used in moderation.