what happens to the numbers

jgstudios

jgstudios

Audioholic Intern
There is a slight methodological flaw in most auto calibration set ups... they don't know the distance between the mic and the l/r speakers. So they can't determine dB at the listening point. Also, the mic is off axis.

Some calibration systems used à wired mic that is placed st the listening position. Not perfect, but much better potential for setting a reasonable dB level...
Yes, my Pioneer has a wired mic with a tripod mount; I place that on my chair at ear level. There are also listening distance settings I can adjust. I'm not sure that I have the volume loud enough. Also the statemens about adjusting 0 for L & R are included in my users manual. I'm going to have to do more research and testing with the MCACC. Thanks for the input. JG
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
What avr uses a wireless mic for calibration? I don't understand why an avr couldn't calculate distance either....they do it regularly and fairly accurately IME. What model Pioneer avr are we talking about? Been a while since I used a Pioneer (it crapped out a few years ago) but I don't believe I had to adjust volume manually for the auto calibration. Generally I'd leave the auto calibration settings for delay (distance) and level alone if just using the avr tools.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
What avr uses a wireless mic for calibration? I don't understand why an avr couldn't calculate distance either....they do it regularly and fairly accurately IME. What model Pioneer avr are we talking about? Been a while since I used a Pioneer (it crapped out a few years ago) but I don't believe I had to adjust volume manually for the auto calibration. Generally I'd leave the auto calibration settings for delay (distance) and level alone if just using the avr tools.
My auto cals have always come very close in distance and dB too. Usually within .5db. Agree with you about distance settings as this has more to do with how the mic sees the room than a tape measure does. Therefore unless it’s grossly different, and needs to be addressed, ime auto cal gets distance pretty good.

My pioneer in the bedroom doesn’t need the volume adjusted for mcacc(neither did my Onkyo or Marantz). But my Marantz does need it raised for manual. Maybe your denons do too?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
My auto cals have always come very close in distance and dB too. Usually within .5db. Agree with you about distance settings as this has more to do with how the mic sees the room than a tape measure does. Therefore unless it’s grossly different, and needs to be addressed, ime auto cal gets distance pretty good.

My pioneer in the bedroom doesn’t need the volume adjusted for mcacc(neither did my Onkyo or Marantz). But my Marantz does need it raised for manual. Maybe your denons do too?
I just meant for the auto routine for volume setting. I think you're right if I use at least the Denon 4520 manually then the test tones change with volume setting, too cold to check the 3808; my Onkyo I just tried has fixed test tones, volume has no effect.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I just meant for the auto routine for volume setting. I think you're right if I use at least the Denon 4520 manually then the test tones change with volume setting, too cold to check the 3808; my Onkyo I just tried has fixed test tones, volume has no effect.
Too cold....

Lmao....
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Too cold....

Lmao....
Well we did have one of the biggest storms in our area's history this last week. At our elevation only 15-24" range but that's pretty unusual here plus it was really heavy and killed a lot of trees. They had to clear 1000 trees off highway 58 before they could reopen it without escort last night; highway was closed both directions from town. Most of our town was without electricity for 4 days, took another day for my location (yesterday). Might have heard about the Amtrak train that was stuck in town and the passengers had to stay on board for all of a day and a half (we don't have the kind of hotel space to accommodate that many). Yesterday morning the temperature in the living room was 37F. You win the lower temperature outside, tho :) Thankfully our outside temp only dipped to 26 one night....mostly in low 30s. Glad to have power again (my house is all electric, even the pellet stove needs that to run)....
 
VonMagnum

VonMagnum

Audioholic Chief
There is a slight methodological flaw in most auto calibration set ups... they don't know the distance between the mic and the l/r speakers. So they can't determine dB at the listening point. Also, the mic is off axis.

Some calibration systems used à wired mic that is placed st the listening position. Not perfect, but much better potential for setting a reasonable dB level...
Most??? What AVRs have auto calibration without a microphone at the listening point? What are they calibrating with exactly in Auto mode praytell? A mic on the AVR? What good would that be for anything, especially if it's in a cabinet? I thought ALL AVRs with auto calibration had microphones to put at the listening location. Even my Yamaha from 2007 has a wired microphone.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Most??? What AVRs have auto calibration without a microphone at the listening point? What are they calibrating with exactly in Auto mode praytell? A mic on the AVR? What good would that be for anything, especially if it's in a cabinet? I thought ALL AVRs with auto calibration had microphones to put at the listening location. Even my Yamaha from 2007 has a wired microphone.
Wired mic with a long cable. I've seen cheap AVRs with a mic built into the chassis.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
What avr uses a wireless mic for calibration? I don't understand why an avr couldn't calculate distance either....they do it regularly and fairly accurately IME. What model Pioneer avr are we talking about? Been a while since I used a Pioneer (it crapped out a few years ago) but I don't believe I had to adjust volume manually for the auto calibration. Generally I'd leave the auto calibration settings for delay (distance) and level alone if just using the avr tools.
I don't know about a wireless mic... never seen that. I have seen a mic built into the chassis, but a cabled mic is the usual arrangement.

If the user defines the distance via settings, this is not a problem. Other than that, how might the AVR compute distance between the speakers and listening position?
 
VonMagnum

VonMagnum

Audioholic Chief
It measures the time delay between sending the signal and picking it up with the microphone and using the average speed of sound calculates the distance.

The system isn't always perfect. I always measure and verify distance and levels manually afterwards and correct any values, if needed.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
It measures the time delay between sending the signal and picking it up with the microphone and using the average speed of sound calculates the distance.

The system isn't always perfect. I always measure and verify distance and levels manually afterwards and correct any values, if needed.
Sure, but the very small distances increase the window of error quite considerably. At 5' sound will take ~0.0045 sec to reach the mic. At 6', it takes 0.0054 sec. That's a time difference of 0.0009 sec, which is an extremely small resolution to have while rejecting first point reflections.

You're very wise to manually check/correct values. I wonder how many ppl do that...
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Sure, but the very small distances increase the window of error quite considerably.
You are guessing? You said it wasn't possible and now it's some vague window of error? You have an avr?
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Most everyone I know use SPL to confirm levels and checks distances, with exception to subs. I dont use AUTO EQ except for that part of the setup. Use seperate EQ for the subs which I cross higher than most.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Most everyone I know use SPL to confirm levels and checks distances, with exception to subs. I dont use AUTO EQ except for that part of the setup. Use seperate EQ for the subs which I cross higher than most.
Wise approach, everettT. Given the variables involved, auto EQ can only get "close". (What do people think is the resolution and accuracy of a mass produced and uncalibrated mic that comes packaged with a $1500 AVR? How accurate is the onboard EQ when some manufacturers offer laptop applications and calibrated miss for "expert" set up?)

Human intervention and a good (~Class 2 or better) spl meter helps close the various ambiguities that affect onboard auto EQ.

Don't get me wrong... I think onboard EQ is one of the best innovations to hit audio since digital music. It's way ahead of what the human ear can achieve. But it's not perfect and it's possible to achieve better results by using auto EQ along with other means.
 
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jgstudios

jgstudios

Audioholic Intern
What avr uses a wireless mic for calibration? I don't understand why an avr couldn't calculate distance either....they do it regularly and fairly accurately IME. What model Pioneer avr are we talking about? Been a while since I used a Pioneer (it crapped out a few years ago) but I don't believe I had to adjust volume manually for the auto calibration. Generally I'd leave the auto calibration settings for delay (distance) and level alone if just using the avr tools.
Pioneer Elite VSX-33 tag on serial number says Manufactured August 2010.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
According to Pioneer, your model AVR allows distance adjustments as small as 1/2", which is very good indeed.

Using a good tape measure and inputting values down to that resolution for speaker-to-mic distances would greatly improve the auto EQ set up.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Just looked at the amp's owner's manual. It doesn't specifically use the term RMS. It uses continuous with an asterisk, leading to a statement about FTC ratings. I haven't gone into the FTC ratings system, but it's possible that it's the same as RMS (which, for all its faults, is the closest thing the audio world has for a gold standard).

The BIG issuse is that your amp is not designed to drive anything lower than 6 ohms (and only when a switch is actuated),according to what is says and doesn't say in the 120 page owner's manual. At 6 ohms, it can drive two channels to 120 watts. Based on what I know and have read, this would suggest an amplifier stage that is quite current limited... perhaps because of a small power supply or limited capacitor capacity.

Polk literature is rather coy when it comes to the RTiA9's impedance. All they say is "8 ohms nominal", which isn't saying a heck of a lot. Some speaker manufacturers manuals have diagrams. Many others list minimum impedance. Shame on apolk for using neither.

Regardless... A Sound and Vision *test* said that "Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.63 ohms at 5.3 kHz and a phase angle of –34.92 degrees at 105 Hz." Now 5300 Hz is pretty much in the middle of the audible range, so your amp will likely be spending more time there (this is an oversimplification) than at sub or very high frequencies.

So the problem is in matching the amp and speakers. It's not a power issue per se. It's an issue of a set of speakers that is asking for more than an amp of limited capacity can deliver.

This isn't particular to AVR style amps, but I see it more often in consumer-level AVRs sold thru big box stores. (Cue AVR fans who will now pile on to defend their honor.)

As an aside, I have a 30 WRMS amp that has no problem driving a set of 8 ohm nominal speakers with 88 dB/W/m whose impedance dips to 3.7 ohms at around 100 Hz. The amp is a high current design and rated for 4 ohm operation. It doesn't get hot even when playing at 85-90 dB.

So it's not power, but design and design limits.
Describing Polk literature as "coy" is putting it kindly. Downright dishonest is more accurate. Those Polk towers have never been 8 ohm speakers and actually present amp busting loads to receivers, especially the new ones. Not only does the impedance dip but the phase angles are atrocious. You can bank on this happening if you design passive crossovers in the range of those Polks. 120 Hz is not a sensible crossover point for a passive crossover.

They quote the 3 db point of those speakers at the bottom end as -3 db at 30 Hz, when in fact third party measurements show it to be 49 Hz. and 6 db down at 40 Hz. So at 20 Hz it will be 30 db! They quote a lower end response to 18 Hz, where in fact response will be virtually inaudible at that point.



That purple line if the FR of those Polk speakers.

This outfit now owns Denon/Marantz which I find very troubling.

My advice remains that if you are going to use Polk towers you had better use a robust external amp, or plan to replace your receiver soon.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
According to Pioneer, your model AVR allows distance adjustments as small as 1/2", which is very good indeed.

Using a good tape measure and inputting values down to that resolution for speaker-to-mic distances would greatly improve the auto EQ set up.
Greatly improve is a stretch I think.
 
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