The dreaded "muddy center speaker" question

[Needa916]

Perhaps it's my hearing, but the dialogue channel has never sounded good to me with the exception of a couple of big theaters. Seriously, I hate the way dialogue sounds even in theatres. I've been in some spectacular home theater environments but was not impressed with the voice coming out of the center.

Which brings me to my small living room and my Sony SS-CS8 center and Yamaha TSR-7850. When I turn up the volume to -15, everything sounds great - even the voices are ok for me. But I never go that high when I am watching with the wife. I am looking for some tips for listening at lower volume and need voices to be somewhat bearable.

Right now at night time of "wife approved" volume, the center sounds horrible. Like they are speaking through a traffic cone. I tried increasing the dialogue volume, as well as center volume and it just makes it worse.

I tried changing the center crossover to 60Hz, 80, 100, etc. The Yamaha initially set it to 40 and large. The only thing that works is turning up the main volume way up.

Surprisingly, modern TV shows sound great at low volumes. All voices sounds so natural. Movies are mixed for large theatres I assume. Is there anything I can do to make the dialogue a bit better for movies. I don't know much about modern receivers. This is my first true surround sound system.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Leemix]

Make sure the center speaker is pointing directly to your ear level and not lower like your chest.
Make sure the front of the center speaker is an inch or so closer to you then the shelf/table you have it placed on.
This might help or might not be enough
It could be worthwhile to get your hearing checked out also. Basically everyone gets some form of hearing loss as they grow up and get older.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ryanosaur]

What is your full speaker set-up?

Unfortunately, I'm not experienced with that speaker, but my guess is that there might be a combination of things happening:
Room acoustics; Speaker placement; actual speaker size; and AVR room correction...

I don't use Yamaha, but I think they have a means of assisting dialog by spreading the center channel out to the mains, some. I think there is also a dialog boost setting. Check for those options.
Find your actual speaker measurements re:FR... and manualy adjust your XO settings to about an octave above the lowest frequency of the speaker (1 octave is a doubling of frequency, i.e. 20-40Hz, 40-80Hz).
If your center channel is in a cubby or shelf... MOVE IT! Especially if it is ported in back.

These are some simple starting points to hopefully help you out.

Cheers!

EDIT: Also, the more info you give us about your set up, the more we can help out: Distance to LP from front 3, for example.

 

[snakeeyes]

Yamaha has a dialog lift adjustment. Basically it can use the main speakers to help lift the dialog up to the center of the screen (assuming you have your main speakers higher than the center speaker)

Yamaha also has the YPAO volume you can enable. I enable this one in my bedroom system. I would turn it off if running a loud movie though.

Yamaha also has a DRC, dynamic range control but I leave that one off. You can try that setting if you want to see how that setting does.

 

[ryanosaur]

Make sure the center speaker is pointing directly to your ear level and not lower like your chest.
Make sure the front of the center speaker is an inch or so closer to you then the shelf/table you have it placed on.
This might help or might not be enough
It could be worthwhile to get your hearing checked out also. Basically everyone gets some form of hearing loss as they grow up and get older.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, re: aiming the CC towards your Ear Level... Ideally, you still want to see the top of the cabinet a bit and not have it disappear edge on. Same with your Left and Right speakers. Ultimately a matter of preference and room acoustics. Some speakers you want perpendicular to the front wall, other you want aimed at you.
Point 2: Yes... same as with having it in a shelf or cubby... you get diffraction issues that wreak havoc with the actual projection of your soundwaves as they emanate from the speaker and start to bounce off not just the baffle but everything around them, too. Ideally, you would have about 1' of free space around the speaker.
When you turn the volume up, the sound becomes significantly more directional, especially in higher frequencies. This effect is often referred to as Beaming. That is probably why you are perceiving greater clarity at higher listening levels.

 

[Needa916]

Ah yes my hearing is definitely isn't as good as it used to be, but my wife also complains about the dialogue. That's why I thought the problem isn't entirely with my hearing.

Good tips on physical placement. I hadn't thought of that. Only been messing around with settings. I am also limited to the equipment I have now. This is to ensure peace at home. I've already had to fight to place the center in top of the cabinet. Previously, it was in a cubby in the entertainment center.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[ryanosaur]

Not suggesting you replace anything! Though we do specialize in helping people spend their money, and most of us seem to enjoy that!

Is that your center, with the light on it in that photo?

If possible, see if there is any way to raise it up a little bit and angle it more toward your shoulders or chin so you can still, obliquely, see the top. And pull it forward as much as possible without it falling off the shelf its on. Even a small pair of foam blocks from amazon like these might make a significant difference!

I would think that if your wife is unhappy with the sound, a compromise could be reached for improving the overall experience!

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Double check to make sure your center's wiring polarity isn't reversed. Also, what are your front left/right speakers? Ideally they should voice match the center.

 

[Needa916]

These are fronts. This is the center. This is the sub. This is the receiver. Also attached my setups. Disregard the little TV - that's so my 2 sons can do some multiplayer in the same room. I've done my best to point the speakers away from the wall. The center is still too low but I am waiting for my old Plasma TV to die so I can mount a 65" and perhaps move the speaker up. It is rear ported though, so I won't be able to mount on the wall.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Modern TV shows have good center-channel voices? I must be watching different shows. Typically they are exceedingly bottom-heavy, especially with male voices.

To that end, your 60 Hz crossover for the center is probably not the way to go. I’d cross it as high as possible. There are no appreciable fundamentals in voices below 200 Hz, unless your name is Barry White.

Also, an EQ boost in the 2-3 kHz range will increase “presence.” As will an increase in the 6-7 kHz range if sibilants are weak (another issue with voices).

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Leemix]

Very strange that center is set as large by auto setup since its rated to 55 at -3db so som room boost there at lower end. What crossover do you use on it?, should probably be at at least 80hz.
Some of the muddyness could also be a result of the sub/sub placement but if you have played with different crossovers and no difference then focus on the center for now.
Let us know how angling center up some and pulling it to edge of shelf (a little past)

Also many movies do have pretty lousy sound and no matter the system its a problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Needa916]

@WaynePflughaupt - this is what I observed when watching FBI, Madam Secretary, Scandal, on Netflix with my Xbox One S. I don't know about live TV.

@Leemix - I set it to 80 for a while, and thought I would try 60 for a bit. I will switch back to 80 and move it out a bit for tonight and see what happens. All great advice, thanks.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Also many movies do have pretty lousy sound and no matter the system is a problem.

No kidding, and TV programming, too. I often wonder just what the engineers are using for monitors...

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Needa916]

In defence of TV shows, to me it sounds "flat". The loud sections are only slightly louder than the dialog. It could be my system, but the dynamic range control might be working well on my receiver. Normally, I don't have to touch the remote when watching the show FBI. There are car chases, explosions, followed by quiet dialog during the interrogation scenes. I am definitely not listening at reference levels, but wife and kid approved levels.

Movies on the other hand are all over the place. The quietest dialog is SOO QUIET and the loud sections are soo loud. This is by design I assume.

 

[Paul DS]

Perhaps it's my hearing, but the dialogue channel has never sounded good to me with the exception of a couple of big theaters. Seriously, I hate the way dialogue sounds even in theatres. I've been in some spectacular home theater environments but was not impressed with the voice coming out of the center.

Which brings me to my small living room and my Sony SS-CS8 center and Yamaha TSR-7850. When I turn up the volume to -15, everything sounds great - even the voices are ok for me. But I never go that high when I am watching with the wife. I am looking for some tips for listening at lower volume and need voices to be somewhat bearable.

Right now at night time of "wife approved" volume, the center sounds horrible. Like they are speaking through a traffic cone. I tried increasing the dialogue volume, as well as center volume and it just makes it worse.

I tried changing the center crossover to 60Hz, 80, 100, etc. The Yamaha initially set it to 40 and large. The only thing that works is turning up the main volume way up.

Surprisingly, modern TV shows sound great at low volumes. All voices sounds so natural. Movies are mixed for large theatres I assume. Is there anything I can do to make the dialogue a bit better for movies. I don't know much about modern receivers. This is my first true surround sound system.View attachment 28331

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I actually had to go through 3 or 4 different center channel speakers before I found one that I liked.

 

[ryanosaur]

Wow... finally had a chance to look at those images... you have some wonky numbers happening!
Those distance measurements are effectively delay settings in your avr to help make the signals reach your LP at the same time.

Are your surrounds really that different in distance?

Likewise, there seems to be some inconsistencies in the level settings. Have you gone through, sitting in your LP, and just cycled through the test tones for each speaker to confirm that the levels sound matched all around?

With results like those, I would consider redoing your room correction set upon a dead quiet house when you have the opportunity... after you adjust your center channel, and see if anything changes.

 

[ryanosaur]

Wow... finally had a chance to look at those images... you have some wonky numbers happening!
Those distance measurements are effectively delay settings in your avr to help make the signals reach your LP at the same time.

Are your surrounds really that different in distance?

Likewise, there seems to be some inconsistencies in the level settings. Have you gone through, sitting in your LP, and just cycled through the test tones for each speaker to confirm that the levels sound matched all around?

With results like those, I would consider redoing your room correction set upon a dead quiet house when you have the opportunity... after you adjust your center channel, and see if anything changes.

OK... now I'm back on my computer instead of phone...
Looking at your front wall... and going back to diffraction issues, Try pulling your L/R forward so there is about 1' from the baffle of Front L to that wall. Try to avoid having it in that nook if at all possible. Your Front R, can't move much of anywhere, just keep it at the same distance from your LP as you have Front L.

Do you have those little satellites set up as Front Height? (Apologies if you already posted... just curious their usage.)
EDIT: And one other note about your distances: It is common for the Sub to measure further away than it actually is due to the DSP built into it. Your other speakers should be fairly close to real lief measurements, I think.

 

[TLS Guy]

Center channel speakers are a real problem. They are the most difficult of all to design. There is nothing like human speech for showing the deleterious effects of crossovers, especially in the speech discrimination band.

Right off the bat most centers are no good out of the stating gait as they are horizontal and not vertical MTM arrays.

I have found that the only centers that really cut it are three ways with vertical tweeter mid arrangement and no crossover in the speech discrimination band. So the mid needs to cover from 400/500 Hz area to 3.5/4.0 KHz range.

Failing that a well designed coaxial driver approach with an obsessionally resigned crossover.

I also have great success at Eagan using a full range driver. I use one of these in a sealed box.

Speech intelligibility is excellent and natural without shout.

There really are few center speakers that are any good on the market. In my view they in fact so bad that I think most systems would be better off without a center.
The BBC seem to agree with me as in their multi channel offerings no center channel signal is provided. Their reasoning is that far too many centers just muck everything up. I agree.

I have one system that does not include any center speaker. The speakers are three way and the mids cover 400 Hz to 4 KHz and speech clarity is superb. It would have to be an absolutely superb center to improve things.

So before you spend money ditch your center.

For drama and the telling of stories natural human conversational speech is a prerequisite, but is so very seldom achieved.

 

[Needa916]

OK... now I'm back on my computer instead of phone...
Looking at your front wall... and going back to diffraction issues, Try pulling your L/R forward so there is about 1' from the baffle of Front L to that wall. Try to avoid having it in that nook if at all possible. Your Front R, can't move much of anywhere, just keep it at the same distance from your LP as you have Front L.

Do you have those little satellites set up as Front Height? (Apologies if you already posted... just curious their usage.)
EDIT: And one other note about your distances: It is common for the Sub to measure further away than it actually is due to the DSP built into it. Your other speakers should be fairly close to real lief measurements, I think.

That picture is misleading. The fronts are quite a ways from the back wall - at least 2 feet and at least 1' from each side wall. I can move them even farther away from the wall close to the cabinet no problem.

The little satellites are set up as front presence or height as you said. This allows me to watch Atmos content, but obviously they are not as good as actual ceiling speakers. The rears are spaced apart quite strangely - but the room correction did a great job. They sound like I have speakers in the rear.

 

[Needa916]

Center channel speakers are a real problem. They are the most difficult of all to design. There is nothing like human speech for showing the deleterious effects of crossovers, especially in the speech discrimination band.

Right off the bat most centers are no good out of the stating gait as they are horizontal and not vertical MTM arrays.

I have found that the only centers that really cut it are three ways with vertical tweeter mid arrangement and no crossover in the speech discrimination band. So the mid needs to cover from 400/500 Hz area to 3.5/4.0 KHz range.

Failing that a well designed coaxial driver approach with an obsessionally resigned crossover.

I also have great success at Eagan using a full range driver. I use one of these in a sealed box.

Speech intelligibility is excellent and natural without shout.

There really are few center speakers that are any good on the market. In my view they in fact so bad that I think most systems would be better off without a center.
The BBC seem to agree with me as in their multi channel offerings no center channel signal is provided. Their reasoning is that far too many centers just muck everything up. I agree.

I have one system that does not include any center speaker. The speakers are three way and the mids cover 400 Hz to 4 KHz and speech clarity is superb. It would have to be an absolutely superb center to improve things.

So before you spend money ditch your center.

For drama and the telling of stories natural human conversational speech is a prerequisite, but is so very seldom achieved.

Wow that's different. Your comment explains why I feel most center channels sound bad - even in *some* theaters. As much as I enjoyed Smaug's crazy deep voice in the Hobbit, I prefer the most natural sounding voice as I get when playing 2 channel audio. I always wondered why the center sounds so much worse in movies compared to singers.