Buying a sub

[CWM]

So I'm really going back and forth with my next purchase. Currently all speakers are poll audio and already decided I'm going to upgrade from the Polk cs10 to a CSi A6.
But as for subs I have a polk psw110. And a onkyo sub. Definitely feel like I want more. So my headache is do I want to match brand and just buy another psw110? Or i can get two polk psw505 for 400 off ebay. But have been given some advice i should just go with even the bottom svs and would be happier. Not sure between what I have should I get next. Front main and rears are monitor 70.
Receiver is a Denon avr-s720w

 

[tmurnin]

You don’t need to match your sub to your speakers. I think on this forum you’ll find a lot of fans of internet direct sub dealers - Hsu and SVS in particular. You don’t say how big your room is or if you’re trying to drive music or movies, but either brand above would be vastly superior to a Polk sub

 

[CWM]

90% HT setup. Around a 20x30 room

 

[CWM]

So if I just add a 500 dollar svs it would be best. Even over two psw110 or psw505

 

[ryanosaur]

How high is your ceiling? Important, because subs work with room volume as opposed to distance-from, like your speakers.
For example, if you have 8' ceilings, you are almost at 5000'3, which the bassaholic rating here at AH would call Extreme! You would be looking at wanting at least 1, probably more, 13-15" subs... like the PB 3000 or 4000, Outlaw x-13, monolith 15", Hsu vtf3 or vtf15, or rythmik 15". Anything smaller is going to leave you wanting.
Now... if your room is open to other areas... those omni-directional LF waves are going to go anywhere and everywhere they please!
As far as anything from Polk... I'm afraid those dogs won't hunt. There are tricks to help you perhaps use less woofage in your space, but seriously... you should research a little before you buy.
Read the Bassaholic room rating protocols here at AH, and you will see if you read any sub reviews here that they reference Large or Extreme rooms. Also read about setting up subs... especially multiple subs. It very well might come in handy and help you avoid making a poor decision!

As an example, in our greatroom, about 8000'3, I have a 10yr old dinky 10"sub from an old HTIB. Yes, I hear bass... but I don't feel it. If I turn up the volume, cabinet doors rattle, but it doesn't do much anything else. That's distortion from an undersized and underpowered sub being used in a room WAY to f'n big for it! In my 2000'3 space with my rig, I have 2 nice subs that will make my ears go numb if I turn them up to about 50%gain! I keep them around 1/4-1/3 gain, and have them trimmed down in the AVR too. I can turn them up and shake the house apart if I need, but am happy to have them perform well for me now and for a long time to come. I bought them for the greatroom, but the lady changed her mind. If I were using them out there, I would be saving for a third as we speak!

A friend here has a recommendation that I adopted because it is straight up truth: Buy the single best sub for your room that you can allow yourself to afford now, and immediately begin saving for a second one.

I would be glad, as would many here, to help you make sense of it all. Don't be afraid to ask. Please, if you do, let us know about complete room volume, and whether there are more areas that your room is open to.

Cheers!

 

[CWM]

How high is your ceiling? Important, because subs work with room volume as opposed to distance-from, like your speakers.
For example, if you have 8' ceilings, you are almost at 5000'3, which the bassaholic rating here at AH would call Extreme! You would be looking at wanting at least 1, probably more, 13-15" subs... like the PB 3000 or 4000, Outlaw x-13, monolith 15", Hsu vtf3 or vtf15, or rythmik 15". Anything smaller is going to leave you wanting.
Now... if your room is open to other areas... those omni-directional LF waves are going to go anywhere and everywhere they please!
As far as anything from Polk... I'm afraid those dogs won't hunt. There are tricks to help you perhaps use less woofage in your space, but seriously... you should research a little before you buy.
Read the Bassaholic room rating protocols here at AH, and you will see if you read any sub reviews here that they reference Large or Extreme rooms. Also read about setting up subs... especially multiple subs. It very well might come in handy and help you avoid making a poor decision!

As an example, in our greatroom, about 8000'3, I have a 10yr old dinky 10"sub from an old HTIB. Yes, I hear bass... but I don't feel it. If I turn up the volume, cabinet doors rattle, but it doesn't do much anything else. That's distortion from an undersized and underpowered sub being used in a room WAY to f'n big for it! In my 2000'3 space with my rig, I have 2 nice subs that will make my ears go numb if I turn them up to about 50%gain! I keep them around 1/4-1/3 gain, and have them trimmed down in the AVR too. I can turn them up and shake the house apart if I need, but am happy to have them perform well for me now and for a long time to come. I bought them for the greatroom, but the lady changed her mind. If I were using them out there, I would be saving for a third as we speak!

A friend here has a recommendation that I adopted because it is straight up truth: Buy the single best sub for your room that you can allow yourself to afford now, and immediately begin saving for a second one.

I would be glad, as would many here, to help you make sense of it all. Don't be afraid to ask. Please, if you do, let us know about complete room volume, and whether there are more areas that your room is open to.

Cheers!

 

[CWM]

This is a close estimation. This is the room in the house I'm moving into and plan to set it up and what I currently have except for center. Just very sure that's what I'm going to order. I actually now have the cs10. Think it's a little weak and been pushing it to hard to keep up

 

[CWM]

Room as best I can estimate

 

[ryanosaur]

I don't think there is a sub that Polk makes that will come close to pressurizing your space... even if you surrounded yourself with 4 of them. And you're right below the Extreme room at about 4700'3.
I would urge, if you wantan enveloping HT experience, that you consider at least 2 subs that would be suitable for the Large Room category.
I would start looking in the area of Pb 3000 but pb or pc 4000 would be more ideal. Hsu VTF3 or VTF 15H (almost the same, the 15 has little more extension.) The VTF2 could work, might be borderline (as would downsizing to SVS PB or PC 2000). Rythmik could still be an option, and maybe Monolith12"... but definitely the 15" would take care of that room, as would the Outlaw x-13s.
Your cathedral ceiling can be a great help with bass frequencies. But to maximize your results I would urge putting your subs in different locations (assuming you go multiple, that is).
When you are in your home, there is a crude trick called the subwoofer crawl that can help you learn about how to place subs in your room. I did it and learned a lot about the subs, my room, and how LF soundwaves work. When I did it in my room, I found a corner that not only amplified the bass, but also made it very muddy. I found a dead spot where bass died. You might find that behind your couch, or between it and the left wall is a great sounding spot! Putting them in front isn't always the best choice. Also, when using multiple subs, it is best to have them be matching.

Hope this helps!

 

[CWM]

I don't think there is a sub that Polk makes that will come close to pressurizing your space... even if you surrounded yourself with 4 of them. And you're right below the Extreme room at about 4700'3.
I would urge, if you wantan enveloping HT experience, that you consider at least 2 subs that would be suitable for the Large Room category.
I would start looking in the area of Pb 3000 but pb or pc 4000 would be more ideal. Hsu VTF3 or VTF 15H (almost the same, the 15 has little more extension.) The VTF2 could work, might be borderline (as would downsizing to SVS PB or PC 2000). Rythmik could still be an option, and maybe Monolith12"... but definitely the 15" would take care of that room, as would the Outlaw x-13s.
Your cathedral ceiling can be a great help with bass frequencies. But to maximize your results I would urge putting your subs in different locations (assuming you go multiple, that is).
When you are in your home, there is a crude trick called the subwoofer crawl that can help you learn about how to place subs in your room. I did it and learned a lot about the subs, my room, and how LF soundwaves work. When I did it in my room, I found a corner that not only amplified the bass, but also made it very muddy. I found a dead spot where bass died. You might find that behind your couch, or between it and the left wall is a great sounding spot! Putting them in front isn't always the best choice. Also, when using multiple subs, it is best to have them be matching.

Hope this helps!

So much insight and making me very excited to start building a great HT moving forward as I upgrade. I feel like the svs subs are the most popular and I think I'll just night the bullet and go that route. Obviously only start off with one to start due to money. Should I use my psw110 also or just the one till I get another? Also after the sub upgrade and center with should I upgrade next? Buy another sub next or something else. Like I mentioned be4 I'm using the monitor 70s as my front L/R and surround L/R also plan to setup my HT with atmos. Right now I just hooked up some little cheap book shelf speakers and there hanging from the ceiling. Current house flat ceiling about 9 foot. Not sure how I want to achieve the atmos st new house. Definitely will do the crawl method! Even sounds fun. I get some feeling of OCD when I do these kinds of things and knowing everything is set good helps alot to enjoy it while I'm listening or watching a 4k Dolby atmos bluray.

 

[CWM]

Also when using my spl meter should my subs hit at the same hz as all other or be less?

 

[ryanosaur]

Also when using my spl meter should my subs hit at the same hz as all other or be less?

spl measures decibels, hertz is frequency. When you start looking at HT from a "reference perspective" your subs will usually be about 10dB higher than your speakers. So reference level is 85dB with 105dB peaks... and the subs would be 95-115dB. In a movie theater! that is the standard.

I would consider just selling your old subs once you get a new one. Mixing subs can lead to different problems that require skill and patience to fix, and sometimes more gear still. Or, put them in another room... bedroom system?

Going back to post 10 from you:
Do one sub now, like I recommended above... best single sub you can afford for that room.
Depending then on your goals... Speakers will give you the most obvious upgrade in sound quality. Not electronics.
If you have, or upgrade to, a 4K HDR TV, maybe with Dolby Vision, you might want to prioritize an AVR to match and utilize those features first. Likewise, if you want to get into Atmos, you would need a new AVR probably with more channels I think. Then speakers next.
If you are primarily HT vs Music, that will affect the speakers you might want to buy. And the opposite holds true. I would argue if good sound is important to you for music, build your system around that rather than HT. If Music is important you want neutral/accurate speakers.
In terms of upgrading speakers, start with the front 3. Left and Right towers (or standmounts) and a matching Center. You can slide your existing speakers around using your best at L/R Surround, and then next at L/R Rear.

There's a lot to weigh as you move along. Feel free starting new threads with specific titles for your goal as you get closer to making decisions on everything. There's a lot of cool cats here with great experiences that can help guide you along the path with great advice and suggestions.

For you, now, start a plan for what your goals are. Think about what is most important and how to implement so your are always improving your rig! Research some AVRs if you decide to do that first, or speakers... online reviews are very helpful... but usually very subjective. Once you get an idea of a few things that interest you, try to find a way to audition them so you can hear and decide for yourself. In-store auditions are great for speakers to help introduce you to them. Not so much for subs, though.

Hope that helps!
Cheers!

 

[CWM]

The avr-s720w I have is 4k and Dolby atmos and I have a 65" 4k. It's a 7 channel so only two ceiling speakers. Thanks for all the advice. I'll start looking for the best sub I can afford and will post once I get it all setup in new spot

 

[lovinthehd]

Also when using my spl meter should my subs hit at the same hz as all other or be less?

Try this https://denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/54/~/calibrating-levels-using-a-sound-level-or-spl-meter

 

[lovinthehd]

spl measures decibels, hertz is frequency. When you start looking at HT from a "reference perspective" your subs will usually be about 10dB higher than your speakers. So reference level is 85dB with 105dB peaks... and the subs would be 95-115dB. In a movie theater! that is the standard.

Reference level (0 dB on the relative scale) after setup would be 85dB average with allowance for 20dB peaks and 10dB more for the LFE channel, so 95 plus 20. IIRC some older avrs you had to set manually for the extra 10dB but current ones do it automatically (why in your auto setup 75dB works for your subs).

 

[CWM]

So been looking over the svs lineup. Them subs look amazing and seem to be the best. Very impressive specs! I'm assuming the PB stands or ported vs. The SB meaning sealed? So as far as price I could order two pb2000 for the price of 1,300 or 1 pb3000 for 1,400. Witch would be best? Feel like if I go this route I should be good for a long time as far as subs! Definitely not the 400 I was thinking with the two psw505 but I feel there must be a reason I'm being steered in this direction. I thought what I had now sounded good. But I cant amagin qhat this must sound like.

 

[lovinthehd]

SVS isn't the value leader they once were perhaps, but they do have a very friendly customer service package that adds value to some consumers, personally I think Hsu has the value title right now for performance unless you're prone to returning things after a home trial then its closer Yes SB is sealed, PB is ported. A couple of good subs compared to the Polks I think would put a smile on your face, tho, but don't over-expect either. Are we guessing correctly that you like it loud? The ported units are more efficient down in the lower range, say 20 to 40 or 50 hz or so, and may offer more value for movie soundtracks that dig that low, but the boxes tend to be larger than sealed units.

You might take a look thru data-bass.com test reports/results on a variety of subs to see how performance ranges among various commercial and diy subs, they don't have all makes/models but a good number of them.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Also when using my spl meter should my subs hit at the same hz as all other or be less?

Yeah, they should be the same but many of us set the sub channel 3-5db over. Set all channels for 75db, with the sub channel in the 78ish range and see how you like that. FWIW, I have experience with the 505 you mentioned, and it will only be useful if used near field and with bigger subs. For clarity, I’m not recommending one, only that their not that great.
How much are you comfortable spending? IMO bass is an investment, especially since your usage is 90%, output and extension are very important. As such, I would start with your new “best” sub in the right front corner. A single sub can be tricky to integrate, but corner loading gives the advantage of exciting all the room modes at the same time. Hopefully then, the nulls are filled and the peaks can be dealt with(can’t raise nulls with eq usually but you can pull down peaks) by your AVR.(won’t talk about rew and minidsp yet lol). Then I might try the second sub in the matching location on the left side. It will look symmetrical, but will be actually placed asymmetrically in the whole of the room, if that makes sense. This may fall in line with @ryanosaur s idea(sup Ryan!) also, as he mentioned, experimenting is key. I’d still corner load the first one, as that will also give it an extra 3db naturally due the side wall vs the left side wit only the long wall behind it.

Next I’d get a matching sub! Then an AVR that will support 2 more height speakers. I used RSL c34e’s and I love them. Love them. They have an angled baffle to match my ceiling which is about the same as yours. Also, JBL, and Dayton have some pendant speakers that look very promising for taller/vaulted ceilings.
Ok. Enough dribble. How low you wanna spend? Lol

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Oh yeah...
http://rythmikaudio.com/


http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15hmk2Dual.html
They have more but my phone is being fussy. You’ll have to dig.

 

[CWM]

I do like it loud. Would like to be able to tell people to skip the theater and come to my spot. So I just used my spl meter and in order to reach 78 db I had to set the volume 80% and level setting +6 (max +12) them everything else is about -6 or -7 .is this ok?