revel ultima salon2 vs focal sopra no. 2

[Irvrobinson]

But how do you know that your speakers are actually producing the EXACT same sound as the ORIGINAL instruments BEFORE it was recorded?

I have never claimed that these recordings are any more than indicators, not exact measures. And I use more instruments than drums. I have an awesome recording of a flute, for example. A friend also has a very deep voice, and that is a very useful recording, even on other people's systems. Many systems make his voice sound unnatural.

 

[Audiot]

That won't work as well as you think, because you'll have the room acoustics recorded multiple times, additively. It even mars my live recordings. On some instruments, a cymbal, for example, you can definitely hear the room and the effects of recording.

This is gospel in some circles. I've heard it said that many engineers prefer not to listen to a recording in the same room it was recorded in, especially if they're the house engineers!

 

[biggarthomas]

Limited by electronics? Lack air above 8K due to directivity? Congestion and lack of coherence in the upper bass?

Are you an Absolute Sound reader? If you are, stop that. It rots your brain. ;-)

Where have you heard the 800D3s?

With Samsung's acquisition of Harman, I'm wondering if there will ever be a Salon3.

I’m a Salon2 owner and couldn’t recognize my speakers in the description ‘congested’ hahaha!

 

[ichigo]

The lack of air above 8K can be seen from the Stereophile measurements. If you want the airiness over 8K you can always go with the Revel F228Be.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The lack of air above 8K can be seen from the Stereophile measurements. If you want the airiness over 8K you can always go with the Revel F228Be.

My hearing is good to at least 16KHz, and there is no "lack of air" above 8KHz. In fact, I have the tweeters on my Salon2s set to a reduced output setting, which is probably due to my room not being as dead as most are because we don't use draperies. One of the methods I used for adjusting the system was recording various cymbals in the room, and playing them back to compare the output to the live recording, and the Salon2 makes the recordings sound quite realistic. Also, unlike some Salon2 owners, I do prefer the tweeters aimed at my listening seat rather than straight ahead. I find imaging is more realistic that way, but I think people who point their speakers straight ahead need more tweeter output. (A guy in my neighborhood uses Salon2s in his dedicated HT room, and I noticed he had them pointed straight ahead, I suspect to increase the perceived size of the sweet spot, which I don't care about.)

I do find that the Salon2s draw a lot of criticism from people who like speakers with saddle-shaped response curves. (The B&W 80x series comes to mind.) In my limited experience nothing convinces them either; recording comparisons to live sounds or measuring their systems and showing them how far their systems deviate from flat. I gave up any such discussions with friends about that a couple of years ago.

 

[shadyJ]

The lack of air above 8K can be seen from the Stereophile measurements. If you want the airiness over 8K you can always go with the Revel F228Be.

Soundstage's measurements don't show the upper treble off-axis drop off to be quite as severe, although it is there. Those who want to hear very high treble should listen near direct axis. The thing is, most of the people in the market for a speaker like this, older men, don;t have very good hearing in that range anyway, so who is really being affected by this? What's more, there isn't that much important content in that range anyway. One other point is that higher frequencies are less subject to room reflections, so a dead room vs lively room wouldn't matter as much for frequencies in this range. Another thing, the Performa F228Be isn't that much better in very high frequency dispersion.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Soundstage's measurements don't show the upper treble off-axis drop off to be quite as severe, although it is there. Those who want to hear very high treble should listen near direct axis. The thing is, most of the people in the market for a speaker like this, older men, don;t have very good hearing in that range anyway, so who is really being affected by this? What's more, there isn't that much important content in that range anyway. One other point is that higher frequencies are less subject to room reflections, so a dead room vs lively room wouldn't matter as much for frequencies in this range. Another thing, the Performa F228Be isn't that much better in very high frequency dispersion.

The Performa F228Be looks worse...

Older men who don't have very good hearing? Speak for yourself. Actually, cymbal reproduction was a big factor in my selection process in 2010. Yeah, I was eight years younger then, but I still do pretty well for a geezer.

The Salon2 was my second choice at the time; I just couldn't get myself to swallow the price of the Sound Lab A-1PX (about twice what I paid for the Salon2s). There has always been something about electrostatics that have attracted me. Even the Quad ESL-63 years ago, but I was too poor and the bass was inadequate. But on chamber music, just like the Sound Labs, they were God's own speakers. ;-)

 

[shadyJ]

The Performa F228Be looks worse...

Older men who don't have very good hearing? Speak for yourself. Actually, cymbal reproduction was a big factor in my selection process in 2010. Yeah, I was eight years younger then, but I still do pretty well for a geezer.

The Salon2 was my second choice at the time; I just couldn't get myself to swallow the price of the Sound Lab A-1PX (about twice what I paid for the Salon2s). There has always been something about electrostatics that have attracted me. Even the Quad ESL-63 years ago, but I was too poor and the bass was inadequate. But on chamber music, just like the Sound Labs, they were God's own speakers. ;-)

I have seen enough audiograms of men in their 50s and 60s to know that hearing above 15 kHz is a rarity among them. If you still have good sensitivity to high frequencies, that is great, hold on to it. It was thought for some time that old age itself could diminish high frequency hearing, but when hearing testing was done on old men in undeveloped regions of the world, they found their hearing was excellent. Its not age that kills high frequency hearing, it is abuse.

I have heard Sound Labs speakers on a couple occasions, and I thought they sounded stellar. I have to wonder about their response though. I wouldn't expect them to measure well with traditional measuring techniques, but their soundfield might come together better in-room. But maybe its not their ES panel construction exactly that gives them their unique sound that you enjoy, but simply their dipole design.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I have seen enough audiograms of men in their 50s and 60s to know that hearing above 15 kHz is a rarity among them. If you still have good sensitivity to high frequencies, that is great, hold on to it. It was thought for some time that old age itself could diminish high frequency hearing, but when hearing testing was done on old men in undeveloped regions of the world, they found their hearing was excellent. Its not age that kills high frequency hearing, it is abuse.

I agree. I use hearing protection in most loud situations, including flying, working on cars with air tools or shop vacs, many live music performances (anywhere I see sound reinforcement in use), and I wear double protection (foam plugs and headsets) when at the shooting range. Compared to what I observe in my age peers, my caution has paid off.

I have heard Sound Labs speakers on a couple occasions, and I thought they sounded stellar. I have to wonder about their response though. I wouldn't expect them to measure well with traditional measuring techniques, but their soundfield might come together better in-room. But maybe its not their ES panel construction exactly that gives them their unique sound that you enjoy, but simply their dipole design.

I'm not sure what it is in technical terms about full-range electrostatics that attract me so much. (Acoustical theory is not an expertise I possess.) From about 100Hz upward, with purist recordings, they sound "more real" than any cone speaker I've ever heard, in a box or not. Perhaps it's the huge driven area. Perhaps it's the lack of crossovers. Perhaps, when sitting in the sweet spot, it's the lack of any box-related distortions, though I doubt this factor most compared to the Salon2s. A friend from years ago who fancied himself a speaker designer thought that time-coherence and phase-coherence were important factors. I don't know, but I've avoided listening to Sound Labs (or the Martin Logan CLX) lately because I'm afraid I'll actually buy a pair, and then I'll be fighting with them for a long time in my own room to find just the right positioning and matching them with a sub. And I'll probably need a second sub. And I will have spent new Japanese car money in the process. Ugh.