Monolith by Monoprice HTP-1 16 Channel Dolby Atmos & DTS:X Home Theater Processor w/Dirac & Alexa Compatibility

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It might just be the increased voltage from the balanced outs. Double the voltage is a 3dB increase. I forget off the top of my head the consumer balanced voltage standard or if that is what the Yamaha follows.

Balanced AV is 23dB, Unbalanced AV is 29dB.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Balanced AV is 23dB, Unbalanced AV is 29dB.

Right I said that wrong before. Double the voltage is 6dB. I see in his review he says balanced is twice the singles ended voltage. So 3dB improvement might suggest worse noise performance?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

balanced is twice the singles ended voltage.

No, Balanced (23dB) is 6dB less than Unbalanced (29dB).

 

[Matthew J Poes]

No, Balanced (23dB) is 6dB less than Unbalanced (29dB).

Ok I had to do a little digging to remind myself of all this. This didn’t make sense to me at first when you said it. Now I remember why.

Those are amplifier gain figures for the input side. The consumer balanced gear has lower gain to compensate for the level difference caused by the fact that the voltage is twice. That means that a measurement of the signal to noise ratio of a balanced output would be 6dB higher if the noise is the same and the voltage is twice. If the circuit actually causes the noise to get worse, then you would see a lower increase in S/N.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/19947905-the-audio-path-in-consumer-grade-audio-products

This blog post actually talks a lot about the problems with consumer balanced gear. Where the signals are attenuated to work with consumer chips and this increases noise. I had actually assumed the worsened noise was the addition of bad conversion chips but sounds like it could also be caused by attenuation.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok I had to do a little digging to remind myself of all this. This didn’t make sense to me at first when you said it. Now I remember why.

Those are amplifier gain figures for the input side. The consumer balanced gear has lower gain to compensate for the level difference caused by the fact that the voltage is twice. That means that a measurement of the signal to noise ratio of a balanced output would be 6dB higher if the noise is the same and the voltage is twice. If the circuit actually causes the noise to get worse, then you would see a lower increase in S/N.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/19947905-the-audio-path-in-consumer-grade-audio-products

This blog post actually talks a lot about the problems with consumer balanced gear. Where the signals are attenuated to work with consumer chips and this increases noise. I had actually assumed the worsened noise was the addition of bad conversion chips but sounds like it could also be caused by attenuation.

The interesting thing I've seen is that some "fully balanced" amps have SNR that don't measure any better when testing the balanced signals compared to the unbalanced signals.

So I think the take-home message is that there is no guarantee that a "fully balanced" amp is better than an amp that only has balanced outputs (instead of fully balanced). It depends on the amp.

The other take-home message is that even when the fully balanced amp or pre-pro measures better, the difference may not be audible at all. So I would rather have a simpler pre-pro that sounds great (just as great) than a more complex pre-pro that doesn't sound any better.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

And if you want the absolute lowest noise and distortion possible, stick to all pro gear apparently. Maybe this:
https://spl.audio/?lang=en

I have one or this monitor controllers and have been eyeing the Phonitor 2 just because
https://spl.audio/studio/phonitor-2/?lang=en

I had a chance to play with some of their gear. It’s really well made and the most technically perfect gear I know of. Like even maybe a slight step over Benchmark.

This is one of those obsessions I have that I rationally know makes no sense but can’t stop myself. I want to own a system where it is technically capable of reproducing as close to 24 bits as possible. So the room, speakers, amplifiers, DACs, etc all have to be up to it. Obviously room noise and speaker output would be the main limiting factor (including that you wouldn’t want to listen that loud). I just want the ability to accurately reproduce realistic sound from a dynamics stand point.

That’s why I worked so hard to soundproof and isolate my theater. It’s noise floor is around 10dB-15dB, and at this point my measurement equipment is limiting me from getting an exact figure. My speakers are capable of exceeding 120dB, which is a number I only know because Of those sound transmission loss sweeps I did and posted about.

But none of the rest of my gear is even in the ballpark. Even with my projector off and all equipment shut in the closet, you can hear the noise of the system. It’s very low level, nothing anyone would care about. But still, wouldn’t it be cool to have a dac and amplifier that render my noisefloor silent and be capable of reproducing more of the real world dynamic range. Sure i would have to start mixing all my own music to appreciate it, but the coolness factor is real.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

BTW, my ATI contact sent an email to DataSAT to inquire about those 3 questions. May take a few days.

 

[gene]

And if you want the absolute lowest noise and distortion possible, stick to all pro gear apparently. Maybe this:
https://spl.audio/?lang=en

I have one or this monitor controllers and have been eyeing the Phonitor 2 just because
https://spl.audio/studio/phonitor-2/?lang=en

I had a chance to play with some of their gear. It’s really well made and the most technically perfect gear I know of. Like even maybe a slight step over Benchmark.

This is one of those obsessions I have that I rationally know makes no sense but can’t stop myself. I want to own a system where it is technically capable of reproducing as close to 24 bits as possible. So the room, speakers, amplifiers, DACs, etc all have to be up to it. Obviously room noise and speaker output would be the main limiting factor (including that you wouldn’t want to listen that loud). I just want the ability to accurately reproduce realistic sound from a dynamics stand point.

That’s why I worked so hard to soundproof and isolate my theater. It’s noise floor is around 10dB-15dB, and at this point my measurement equipment is limiting me from getting an exact figure. My speakers are capable of exceeding 120dB, which is a number I only know because Of those sound transmission loss sweeps I did and posted about.

But none of the rest of my gear is even in the ballpark. Even with my projector off and all equipment shut in the closet, you can hear the noise of the system. It’s very low level, nothing anyone would care about. But still, wouldn’t it be cool to have a dac and amplifier that render my noisefloor silent and be capable of reproducing more of the real world dynamic range. Sure i would have to start mixing all my own music to appreciate it, but the coolness factor is real.

You're in a battle with thermal noise (aka. Johnson Noise) and will not be able to get much better than a 21-22dB noise floor until we move to super conductors.

The Denon AVP-A1HDCI had about the best SNR and distortion measurements I've ever measured in any product regardless of price. But that was from a different era of electronics where build quality and performance from statement pieces triumphed over features and profitability.

 

[gene]

We just published a preview article with short Q&A from Monoprice on the HTP-1.

see: https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/monolith-htp-1

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As for the DataSat 16Ch being balanced, the word from ATI and DataSat is that it has full balanced outputs.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

You're in a battle with thermal noise (aka. Johnson Noise) and will not be able to get much better than a 21-22dB noise floor until we move to super conductors.

The Denon AVP-A1HDCI had about the best SNR and distortion measurements I've ever measured in any product regardless of price. But that was from a different era of electronics where build quality and performance from statement pieces triumphed over features and profitability.

yeah

I designed an amp that hit the thermal noise of the resistors. I went on a fishing expedition to reduce it before realizing I just wasn't that smart, plus the amp needed to be redesigned to get any better. The power supply was insane. more than 200,000uf of capacitance in a CLCRC configuration. The amp was a fairly standard Class AB design but well implemented with good matched parts.

 

[gene]

As for the DataSat 16Ch being balanced, the word from ATI and DataSat is that it has full balanced outputs.

It could still be single-ended between the stages and converted differentially in the output. I would ask them if the balanced topology remains from input to output with no conversion.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

It could still be single-ended between the stages and converted differentially in the output. I would ask them if the balanced topology remains from input to output with no conversion.

I had previously been told that it was fully balanced but I would love confirmation. My contact is radio silence for the moment.

We also need to find out if this processor from Monoprice is fully balanced or not. If it’s a single ended circuit using convert chips but giving no SE output, that would be annoying. It could very well be adding noise. THATcorp chips are transparent but some of the older Ti chips are not.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It could still be single-ended between the stages and converted differentially in the output. I would ask them if the balanced topology remains from input to output with no conversion.

I asked if the Datasat is “fully balanced from input to output”.

I was told that “the Input is digital” and the output is balanced.

I was then asked, “How does a digital input become balanced?”

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I had previously been told that it was fully balanced but I would love confirmation. My contact is radio silence for the moment.

We also need to find out if this processor from Monoprice is fully balanced or not. If it’s a single ended circuit using convert chips but giving no SE output, that would be annoying. It could very well be adding noise. THATcorp chips are transparent but some of the older Ti chips are not.

I was asked, “What is the official definition of Fully Balanced”?

According to DataSat, it has “full professional balanced outputs”. Nothing was mentioned about the Input being balanced, but rather the inputs are digital.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I was asked, “What is the official definition of Fully Balanced”?

According to DataSat, it has “full professional balanced outputs”. Nothing was mentioned about the Input being balanced, but rather the inputs are digital.

I don’t think we are concerned with an analog input. The output of most consumer dac chips is single ended. To be balanced you have to use a pair. That’s why a lot of pro gear uses quad DACs. Because each channel pair can use one quad dac in differential mode allowing for true balanced performance.

It costs a lot more in parts to make a balanced circuit since everything from the DAC to the output is doubled. It’s possible this is actually a single ended device and the output is just a single ended to balanced converter chip.

 

[gene]

I was asked, “What is the official definition of Fully Balanced”?

According to DataSat, it has “full professional balanced outputs”. Nothing was mentioned about the Input being balanced, but rather the inputs are digital.

I was referring to the analog gain stages. Some companies cut cost and convert single-ended between gain and/or summing stages.

 

[everettT]

I was asked, “What is the official definition of Fully Balanced”?

According to DataSat, it has “full professional balanced outputs”. Nothing was mentioned about the Input being balanced, but rather the inputs are digital.

After 200k in gear you dont know I'm sure you have the dealer sheets lol

 

[gene]

I had previously been told that it was fully balanced but I would love confirmation. My contact is radio silence for the moment.

We also need to find out if this processor from Monoprice is fully balanced or not. If it’s a single ended circuit using convert chips but giving no SE output, that would be annoying. It could very well be adding noise. THATcorp chips are transparent but some of the older Ti chips are not.

One thing I just noticed is the HTP-1 doesn't have a balanced input. That's a major oversight and I just emailed them to implore them to include at least one. Many audiophiles (myself included) have high end source devices to play SACD 2CH and like using the analog outs. Also, no phono preamp on this processor, but maybe they can offer an expansion module for a modest cost adder.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

One thing I just noticed is the HTP-1 doesn't have a balanced input. That's a major oversight and I just emailed them to implore them to include at least one. Many audiophiles (myself included) have high end source devices to play SACD 2CH and like using the analog outs. Also, no phono preamp on this processor, but maybe they can offer an expansion module for a modest cost adder.

Those are good points.