upgrade or not

[Alfred Gordon]

Start out with the fact that I am running 7.1 setup currently in a room with vaulted ceilings, so I'm running L/C/R, LS/RS, and Rear Heights. My pioneer amp is only 7.2 so my question is do I upgrade the receiver and somehow run ceiling speakers and 2nd sub or is there another route anyone would recommend. I like watching my 4k ATMOS movies and would like to experience better sound. Upgrade Receiver, get amp, get second sub, add ceiling speakers?????? Lost as what to do setup is difficult do to open layout and vaulted ceilings.

Pioneer Receiver 7.2
Def Tech SM55 fronts, SM45 surround and rear heights
Def Tech Center
Klipsch Sub

 

[ryanosaur]

Hi.
A few questions to maybe help you out a bit more.
First. Are you happy with the sound in your room? If not, look at your speakers. A new AVR or amplifiers won't change the sound.
Second, are you happy with the quality of bass in your room? If you find bass is lacking, then adding additional subs, and possibly even replacing what you already have, is where you need to look.
If both are dissatisfying, then, both.
Third, If you want to expand to more channels, then, yes, a new AVR or Pre-Pro and separate amplifiers will be what you need to do.

So where to really begin?
What are your room dimension: LxWxH. Do your best to include the peak of your ceieling and low-points, please. Room volume is important for subwoofers.
Where is your main LP from the speakers? and how many seats do you use regularly where good sound might be important.
What is your budget?
Do you listen to a lot of music? Strictly HT? If mixed usage, what percentage, please.

This will help us better make some recommendations for you.

Cheers!
R

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Start out with the fact that I am running 7.1 setup currently in a room with vaulted ceilings, so I'm running L/C/R, LS/RS, and Rear Heights. My pioneer amp is only 7.2 so my question is do I upgrade the receiver and somehow run ceiling speakers and 2nd sub or is there another route anyone would recommend. I like watching my 4k ATMOS movies and would like to experience better sound. Upgrade Receiver, get amp, get second sub, add ceiling speakers?????? Lost as what to do setup is difficult do to open layout and vaulted ceilings.

Pioneer Receiver 7.2
Def Tech SM55 fronts, SM45 surround and rear heights
Def Tech Center
Klipsch Sub

Well.....
What are the room dims? Budget? Which way do the ceilings slant?
Ideally, if you have enough money, I would upgrade the subs to two not klipsch subs. I’m assuming since you’re using 7.1. that you have enough room behind your LP to do 7.x.4. That would be the best but you’d need a receiver like the denon x4400/4500 that can process 11 channels, and then a 2ch amp since it only has 9 amp channels, but processes 11. By itself it can do 5.x.4 and that is easily an upgrade to any 7.x channel based system, and it might be a good place to start.
Curious, why are you using rear heights?or are they just regular rear surrounds mounted very high?

So the short answer(for me) would be, yes, new AVR, 4ceiling speakers and at a minimum one more of the same sub you currently have. Although I’m not sure which one you’re using, klipsch subs are usually very mediocre so that’s why I recommended replacing the current one with two different ones.
HSU and Rythmik offer great value in subwoofers. SVS offers great subs, but do have a premium attached, and they all offer great customer service.

 

[snakeeyes]

I would also recommend an upgrade to HSU or Rythmik or SVS subs. Good luck!

 

[ryanosaur]

To be fair, I want you to replace the Klipsch Sub, too.
But more to the point, is what you perceive as necessity vs want.

In line with the Sub suggestions, and in no particular order.... You can't really go wrong with any of the following:
SVS, Rythmik, Hsu, Outlaw, Monolith by Monoprice, and PSA
But what you may need depends on the questions asked above!

William gives great advice for the receiver and speaker configuration: The Denons are highly recommended right now. And I've been hearing good stuff about the Yamaha Aventage line, though have no experience with them. But you should definitely consider the long term plan of upgrading to an AVR with up to 11 channel processing, which would allow for up to 7.x.4 speaker setup using an external amp to at least power your L/R speakers. That said, many will recommend just going 5.x.4, and using the Top Front and Top rear atmos positions.

(I enjoy my video games, and am building towards a 7.2.4 rig by mid year. I think more games might be using the Rear Surrounds than movies, so those Rear Surrounds are important to me. For reference, I'm using a Marantz SR6012 AVR and am powering my L/C/R and L/R Surrounds with external amplification, and will run the other 6 channels from my AVR.)

Regardless of that, you can probably still use your existing AVR in the near term once you decide your priorities. As I said, changing the AVR isn't going to change your sound, really. That's all speakers!

 

[Alfred Gordon]

I appreciate all the replies, I should give a better example of my setup. The fronts are bookshelves on stands, center is high but angled down, side surrounds are also on stands and due to strange layout rear surrounds are just above door height angled down. The ceiling is vaulted from regular 8ft height on left to around 12ft height on right. The room is an open L shape due to dining and kitchen being off livingroom. Speakers are all def tech except sub which is a cheap Klipsch, it sounds good but always want more especially for movies that's why I'm debating on in ceiling speakers. The vaulted ceiling is probably the biggest dilemma. I know I need to either upgrade the receiver or get a separate amp to add channels that way.

 

[ryanosaur]

Cool... it sounds like maybe you aren't unhappy with your speakers, but with bass... and just want to add more speakers as well?
And that vaulted ceiling might actually be more helpful than you realize, from an acoustics perspective!

Any way... For subs, measure your open area room for total volume. For that cathedral ceiling, figure for the lower part of the whole room up to the 8'height... then figure the volume for the sloped ceiling by treating the height as 4'(the highest point of the slope) x same L xW as below, and simply divide by 2 (volume of the ceiling portion), and add that to the volume of the room below. This room volume is where you will start to figure how much woofage you might need.

I know I need to either upgrade the receiver or get a separate amp to add channels that way.

The separate amp won't add channels without the AVR being able to process.

So, that leaves your budget!

Once you shop around a little, looking at AVRs that can amplify 9 channels and process 11, Decide on what you want to spend on it. If you go with the older models like Marantz SR6012, a comparable Denon... they are pretty heavily discounted right now... just a hint. Best I can tell, the newer models of those two lines are just updating to IMax compatibility with a few other minor tricks here and there... not high on my value list. But only you can decide what you want for yourself.
After you figure out your AVR, look at subs. I would recommend looking for something that will work in your room size, first, that drops down to ~18Hz, and can perhaps even be daisy chained with another sub. You will want to buy the same matching subs as you go forward (this will help you avoid some problems with bass response). My recommendation is to replace the Klipsch with the best single sub you can allow yourself to afford now, then start saving for the second, and perhaps third. (Thanks William for teaching me that!)

Lastly, consider that you can hang speakers from the ceiling without cutting into the ceiling. There is hardware for cathedral ceilings... just another option for you. Either way, I would do this after the AVR and Sub.

My 2 cents.

Keep sharing Alfred, we'll gladly help you make sense of everything!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So in that case, I would forgo 7.x.x and do 5.2.4. The rear surrounds are too high to make atmos work right. My ceiling is very similar and I chose rsl c34e’s.
https://rslspeakers.com/c34e-ceiling-speaker/
The angles baffle arrangement is almost the same 15° angle as my ceiling an they basically point straight down and sound excellent with very wide dispersion, perfect for atmos.
Another option I like are these.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/control-60-series/control-64p-t
That leaves an AVR. The denon x4400 seems to be the golden child for bang for your buck and as a last years model, can be had reasonably.(about 799)

How big is the room?(oops if I messed it)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html
Here’s a link to great value on subs. The dual drive options are great.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/index.html
Here’s some more!
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/index.html
Still don’t know budget so these recommendations could be over or under your mark, but still show great value for a system you wouldn’t want to upgrade for a long time. Any ID subwoofer would destroy the current one and show you a new world of bass.

Here’s a couple shots of my ceiling just for fun.

 

[Alfred Gordon]

Thanks ryanosaur I will look into some of the receivers that are prior model years but meet requirements and look into replacing that sub as well. Hanging speakers from the ceiling, will take some working on the wife.

 

[Alfred Gordon]

William thank you for your help. I like the idea of the in ceilings due to cleanliness especially on vaulted ceiling. I will research the subs, I know anything like SVS is out of the question at least for a few years. I've been looking into Denon receivers and believe it will be the route I take.

So in that case, I would forgo 7.x.x and do 5.2.4. The rear surrounds are too high to make atmos work right. My ceiling is very similar and I chose rsl c34e’s.
https://rslspeakers.com/c34e-ceiling-speaker/
The angles baffle arrangement is almost the same 15° angle as my ceiling an they basically point straight down and sound excellent with very wide dispersion, perfect for atmos.
Another option I like are these.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/control-60-series/control-64p-t
That leaves an AVR. The denon x4400 seems to be the golden child for bang for your buck and as a last years model, can be had reasonably.(about 799)

How big is the room?(oops if I messed it)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html
Here’s a link to great value on subs. The dual drive options are great.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/index.html
Here’s some more!
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/index.html
Still don’t know budget so these recommendations could be over or under your mark, but still show great value for a system you wouldn’t want to upgrade for a long time. Any ID subwoofer would destroy the current one and show you a new world of bass.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

William thank you for your help. I like the idea of the in ceilings due to cleanliness especially on vaulted ceiling. I will research the subs, I know anything like SVS is out of the question at least for a few years. I've been looking into Denon receivers and believe it will be the route I take.

The funny thing is SVS used to be IMO, THE subwoofer value company. I don’t remember anything available 10 or so years ago that could come close, especially for the price.(there were some competitors). Nowadays they still make really high quality offerings, I feel like we’re paying for their name, and higher profile company. They do come with great tech features and apps etc. but I’m old school, and I’m just fine to use equalizers and spl meters to set up my stuff. FWIW, 2/3 of my subs are pc plus cylinders. Love them, but if I ever get to upgrade them I start at Rythmik.
I attached a couple pics(last post) of my ceiling just so you can have an idea of what I’m working with. May or may not help with your WAF but I’ll leave that to you. Lol
Still wondering about budget. Not to pry but to get an idea of where I can window shop.

 

[Danzilla31]

So in that case, I would forgo 7.x.x and do 5.2.4. The rear surrounds are too high to make atmos work right. My ceiling is very similar and I chose rsl c34e’s.
https://rslspeakers.com/c34e-ceiling-speaker/
The angles baffle arrangement is almost the same 15° angle as my ceiling an they basically point straight down and sound excellent with very wide dispersion, perfect for atmos.
Another option I like are these.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/control-60-series/control-64p-t
That leaves an AVR. The denon x4400 seems to be the golden child for bang for your buck and as a last years model, can be had reasonably.(about 799)

How big is the room?(oops if I messed it)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html
Here’s a link to great value on subs. The dual drive options are great.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/index.html
Here’s some more!
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/index.html
Still don’t know budget so these recommendations could be over or under your mark, but still show great value for a system you wouldn’t want to upgrade for a long time. Any ID subwoofer would destroy the current one and show you a new world of bass.

Here’s a couple shots of my ceiling just for fun.

Nice setup boss looks great! ..... Now how big is your TV HUH?! Lol

 

[Alfred Gordon]

The funny thing is SVS used to be IMO, THE subwoofer value company. I don’t remember anything available 10 or so years ago that could come close, especially for the price.(there were some competitors). Nowadays they still make really high quality offerings, I feel like we’re paying for their name, and higher profile company. They do come with great tech features and apps etc. but I’m old school, and I’m just fine to use equalizers and spl meters to set up my stuff. FWIW, 2/3 of my subs are pc plus cylinders. Love them, but if I ever get to upgrade them I start at Rythmik.
I attached a couple pics(last post) of my ceiling just so you can have an idea of what I’m working with. May or may not help with your WAF but I’ll leave that to you. Lol
Still wondering about budget. Not to pry but to get an idea of where I can window shop.

I agree most of the time you're paying for the name especially with speakers, as far as budget I'm going to have to do a little at a time. Probably no more than 2000 for receiver, 200-250 for ceiling speakers that would be a pair or 4, sub is really hard due to room layout and locations available. With price of speakers being so different I would say low end of 700 if I can find something decent in these ranges

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Nice setup boss looks great! ..... Now how big is your TV HUH?! Lol

L. M. A. O.

Yep danno, my little tiny baby is a 58”er.

it kinda disappears on that 16’ wall.
No need to rib me too hard though, I have a projection scheme in the works. I think my wife even likes it!

 

[Alfred Gordon]

Nice setup especially with the challenge of layout.

 

[Danzilla31]

L. M. A. O.

Yep danno, my little tiny baby is a 58”er.

it kinda disappears on that 16’ wall.
No need to rib me too hard though, I have a projection scheme in the works. I think my wife even likes it!

AND YOU GAVE ME SO MUCH SH@$!T ON MY LITTLE RINKY DINKY A@$! TV. You had my ego just crushed man.... BUT OHHHH DONT YOU WORRY! PAYBACK IS A COMING!!!!! . LMFAO!!!!

 

[Danzilla31]

L. M. A. O.

Yep danno, my little tiny baby is a 58”er.

it kinda disappears on that 16’ wall.
No need to rib me too hard though, I have a projection scheme in the works. I think my wife even likes it!

All ribbing aside I love what you've done with your room looks beautiful bro

 

[Danzilla31]

L. M. A. O.

Yep danno, my little tiny baby is a 58”er.

it kinda disappears on that 16’ wall.
No need to rib me too hard though, I have a projection scheme in the works. I think my wife even likes it!

If you don't mind me asking what towers do you have there? Just curious I could swear they look like JBL's I'm getting super curious about there studio 590's I think I got the name right I really like the look of them I can't get them out of my head

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If you don't mind me asking what towers do you have there? Just curious I could swear they look like JBL's I'm getting super curious about there studio 590's I think I got the name right I really like the look of them I can't get them out of my head

Good eye man. They are indeed JBL studioII s-312 designed by none other than Greg timbers and use a French sourced titanium tweeter complete with 12” woofers. While definitely not the be all end all speaker, they are really great and I haven’t had a lot of reasons to upgrade them since IMO it would cost a bunch to get much better. I did consider the 590’s as well. They look suuuuper cool and from all accounts I’ve heard, they sound great. I also think they look awesome, and have a very unique look. I follow most of the brands and when the time comes, I’m not sure which brand I’ll choose although I have always wanted a pair of gorgeous towers by legacy. revel and kef intrigue me too as well as philharmonic and some others.

I have experienced a bunch of different JBL’s through the years and for the most part I think they offer really good value.

 

[Danzilla31]

Good eye man. They are indeed JBL studioII s-312 designed by none other than Greg timbers and use a French sourced titanium tweeter complete with 12” woofers. While definitely not the be all end all speaker, they are really great and I haven’t had a lot of reasons to upgrade them since IMO it would cost a bunch to get much better. I did consider the 590’s as well. They look suuuuper cool and from all accounts I’ve heard, they sound great. I also think they look awesome, and have a very unique look. I follow most of the brands and when the time comes, I’m not sure which brand I’ll choose although I have always wanted a pair of gorgeous towers by legacy. revel and kef intrigue me too as well as philharmonic and some others.

I have experienced a bunch of different JBL’s through the years and for the most part I think they offer really good value.

Your speakers are super super cool man. I love JBL like you said they offer great sound at a great value. I actually love horns if they are done right and JBL is one of the ones that does them right.

I'm on my SVS trip now but man if those JBL 590's go on sale next year for friggin $500 apiece again I might just have to put three of them up front and go with 4 of the 580's for my surrounds. That would sound friggin epic in my room.

I love the soundstage and directivity and dynamics and clear clean highs a really good horn can reproduce. For a long time the best ones were just really expensive but JBL And some other companies really brought good horn loaded speakers down to our range. And for my main room being mostly movies with music in the office set up and bedroom well sh@!!t that would be a sweet sweet setup.

The only thing I worry about with upgrading ultra's is the woofers being on the bottoms side firing. That front wall already has a tendency to have too much gain why I had to relocate the PB 4000's I'm worried about some bass bloat and muddying with the Ultra Towers the way there built like that

Hence my current obsession with the 590's!