New Receiver after 20 years-Yamaha/Marantz/Denon

[lucifer4620]

Ok all, I need some guidance / opinions as I’m churning in analysis paralysis.

Background – An old audiophile (in desire if not execution) I’ve been holding off on getting a new receiver with the thought that I was moving in the next few years and the house would help dictate requirements. That doesn’t seem to be the case now so I’ve started shopping.

Brands: I’ve narrowed down to Yamaha, Denon, & Marantz (and yes I know latter are “sisters” – in fact the Marantz SR7102 & Denon AVRX4500H look identical from the rear).

Budget: Up to 2k but only if there is cause.

Current set up: 5.1 with many years of age. Amp (Carver) is pushing 125w/all channels and 180w/2 channel. Other components are not relevant as they are on the upgrade path. I’m switching to a receiver for simplicity of operations (WAF).

Requirements:
The primary use is going to be home theater. I have other setups for audio in different rooms. That said, if there is a new house, I may merge things depending on the layout. So musicality of a receiver is important but a secondary driver.
Channels: While a 7.2 system is the most likely setup I’d like to have 9.2 capability in case I get the right room for Atmos.
Candidates:
Yamaha RX-A3080, A2080, A2070. RX-V2085
Marantz SR7012, SR6012
Denon AVRX4500H, AVRX4400H
All are at least 9.2 and have the basics on sound/video processing covered. Subtle differences like # of HDMI inputs/outputs and zones are not important to me – all more than cover my needs. Auro 3D intrigues me but seems more like a nice-to-have.
My original plan was to buy a minus one generation model simply for cost savings.
So, after some spreadsheet studying, here are some questions I have.

• Yamaha – Surround: AI. Has anyone experienced this and adopted for regular use (not just a demo)? It sounds like it could potentially help but I have used only one of the sound processors on my current preamp and even then, sparingly. That said, there have been many advances since I last bought something. The chipsets are far more powerful and the software more advanced. This one feature seems to be the largest argument for a current year model.
• Thoughts on Musicast (Yamaha) vs HEOS (Denon/Marantz)? Is it an Apple/Android debate with fans of each or does one have strong advantages?
• Marantz is reputed to have a “warmer” sound for music. Have any of you experienced this?
• Yamaha has been reputed to be more musical. My first preamp (1979-yikes) was a Yamaha and I loved it. 39 years later is it still true?
• While my budget (self-imposed) allows up to 2k I’m not sure there is a compelling argument (meaning will I hear the difference or value the feature set enough) to go up to that level. Right now the Yamaha RX-V2085 at $1,399.95 seems to be “high” enough (not to mention seeming almost identical to the RX-A2080). Juxtapose that to the (2017 model) Denon AVRX4400H for $899. Are there enough material differences to justify another $500 in cost?
• The Yamaha(s) show minimum impedance for center and surrounds at 6 ohms (vs 4 for Denon/Marantz). I have M&K 850 center speaker rated at 4 ohms (surrounds are 8 ohms). Any cause for concern?
• DAC, Chips, Software Oh My. I see a lot of literature about the great processors (e.g. SABRE 9007S Premier Audio DAC/Yamaha) etc. Any feedback on real world experience? Without a side by side A/B comparison would I ever know?

I would appreciate any thoughts, comments, pros/cons, etc. If you bought one of these, why – what were the distinguishing attributes? If you skipped one of these – what stopped you? Comments from real world owner experience always trump salesmen, literature and 3rd party reviews IMHO.

Thanks all for your input.

 

[everettT]

Can you describe you setup more, make and models. If you can still get the 4400x, that would be pretty strong. If you M&K all round, most amps can drive that no issues

 

[everettT]

As for distributed audio, between HEOS, DTS playfi, and music cast, it's a toss up depending on you real world needs.

 

[lucifer4620]

Can you describe you setup more, make and models. If you can still get the 4400x, that would be pretty strong. If you M&K all round, most amps can drive that no issues

So most of my current setup is due for upgrading as well. TV is 70" but not 4k -but that is next. Speakers M&K 850 series with Atlantic Tech 352PBM subwoofer. The usual assortment of gadgets (Nvdia Shield, Amazon firestick, blue ray player, Tivo Romio). HT "room" is part of a larger L shaped family room with a pool table. Overall room is 32' long on one run and 28 on the other. HT part is in the intersection and is approx 16'x14'

 

[PENG]

Brands: I’ve narrowed down to Yamaha, Denon, & Marantz (and yes I know latter are “sisters” – in fact the Marantz SR7102 & Denon AVRX4500H look identical from the rear).

I think you meant SR7012, that should be compared to the AVR-X4400H. They do look almost identical from the rear but not really identical because the Marantz has 7.1 analog inputs.

Their inside do look almost identical as well, except again the Marantz has 7.1 analog inputs and the HDAM modules.

Budget: Up to 2k but only if there is cause.

If you are in the US, $2K is a generous budget but you definitely can do better by going with the 2017 models such as the two you mentioned, and the Yamaha RX-A3070

Marantz is reputed to have a “warmer” sound for music. Have any of you experienced this?

Definitely not for me, the only difference between the 7012 and 4400 that may result in audible difference is the HDAM modules, but both are supposed to be transparent based on the same audio specs and past bench tests on similar models. Adding an additional buffer stage may be good marketing to please some audiophiles but it also mean additional complexity for no audible improvements.

Yamaha has been reputed to be more musical. My first preamp (1979-yikes) was a Yamaha and I loved it. 39 years later is it still true?

Whatever the source was, it's subjective so it is up to you to believe it or not, but I don't know of any supporting evidence.

While my budget (self-imposed) allows up to 2k I’m not sure there is a compelling argument (meaning will I hear the difference or value the feature set enough) to go up to that level. Right now the Yamaha RX-V2085 at $1,399.95 seems to be “high” enough (not to mention seeming almost identical to the RX-A2080). Juxtapose that to the (2017 model) Denon AVRX4400H for $899. Are there enough material differences to justify another $500 in cost?

The Yamaha models cannot process 11 channels so imo the 11 channel capable Denon at $899 is unbeatable. The Yamaha models may well be more reliable and potentially fewer HDMI handshake related issues, but only you can decide whether those potential advantages justify the much higher street price.

The Yamaha(s) show minimum impedance for center and surrounds at 6 ohms (vs 4 for Denon/Marantz). I have M&K 850 center speaker rated at 4 ohms (surrounds are 8 ohms). Any cause for concern?

That could be a concern, or not, it really depends mainly on your seating distance and how loud you listen to.

DAC, Chips, Software Oh My. I see a lot of literature about the great processors (e.g. SABRE 9007S Premier Audio DAC/Yamaha) etc. Any feedback on real world experience? Without a side by side A/B comparison would I ever know?

The ES9007 (RX-A2080) and the AK4458 (Denon/Marantz) are very comparable.

The Sabre DAC is 5 dB better in DNR and the AKM DAC is 5 dB better in THD, such differences should not matter as both won't be the bottleneck in the signal path.

I would appreciate any thoughts, comments, pros/cons, etc. If you bought one of these, why – what were the distinguishing attributes? If you skipped one of these – what stopped you? Comments from real world owner experience always trump salesmen, literature and 3rd party reviews IMHO.

I bought the Denon to replace my Marantz just to try 7.1.4 Atmos and I know Audyssey XT32 works well in my room and am not sure about YPAO, and i don't want to pay $1,500 (based onCanadian prices) more for the RX-A3070

 

[lovinthehd]

Just what makes a receiver "musical"? What is "musicality"?

 

[Spdmn256]

Just what makes a receiver "musical"? What is "musicality"?

Glad you asked this...I was wondering the same thing...

For what it’s worth I have the SR6012 and like it. It has various modes for music and movies so maybe those types of features are what you’re thinking of? I use the HEOS app to play music from my iPad, Pandora etc and found it easy to set up and use.

 

[snakeeyes]

Thinking you should maximize your value by buying last years model Denon or Yamaha on sale. Such as Denon 4400 or Yamaha 3070.

I’m not sure Marantz is much different than Denon because they are the same company.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yamaha RX-A3070 for $1349 on Amazon.

My reason: I think Yamaha is more reliable than Denon/Marantz. Sound quality to me is the same.

 

[lucifer4620]

Just what makes a receiver "musical"? What is "musicality"?

Re: Musical – LOL and touché. A fair point. I guess in my mind some receivers have been described as tonally harsh or bright/strident. However there are so many other factors at play (speakers, room acoustics, equalization, etc.) that it likely renders the point moot.

Maybe I’ve been reading too many reviews
Whathifi denon avr-x4400h review
“From the initial jabs of The Jon Spencer Blues Explosion’s Bellbottoms that soundtracks the opening heist, that familiar combination of muscle and musicality is patently clear.”
Whathifi denon avr-x6400h review
“It’s a surprisingly musical amplifier, with a wonderfully fluid sense of dynamics that keeps you hooked on every word and action unfolding on screen.”

 

[lucifer4620]

Yamaha RX-A3070 for $1349 on Amazon.

My reason: I think Yamaha is more reliable than Denon/Marantz. Sound quality to me is the same.

Thanks - worth checking into reliability/repair records

 

[PENG]

Re: Musical – LOL and touché. A fair point. I guess in my mind some receivers have been described as tonally harsh or bright/strident. However there are so many other factors at play (speakers, room acoustics, equalization, etc.) that it likely renders the point moot.

Maybe I’ve been reading too many reviews
Whathifi denon avr-x4400h review
“From the initial jabs of The Jon Spencer Blues Explosion’s Bellbottoms that soundtracks the opening heist, that familiar combination of muscle and musicality is patently clear.”
Whathifi denon avr-x6400h review
“It’s a surprisingly musical amplifier, with a wonderfully fluid sense of dynamics that keeps you hooked on every word and action unfolding on screen.”

Those were typically hyperbole by reviewers. You will find the same thing they say about other products. I have owned Sony, Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, NAD, Parasound, Kenwood, and other products and I have never came across one that is tonally harsh, strident as such. To me they are all capable of being musical, similar to what I heard in live venues.

 

[lovinthehd]

Re: Musical – LOL and touché. A fair point. I guess in my mind some receivers have been described as tonally harsh or bright/strident. However there are so many other factors at play (speakers, room acoustics, equalization, etc.) that it likely renders the point moot.

Maybe I’ve been reading too many reviews
Whathifi denon avr-x4400h review
“From the initial jabs of The Jon Spencer Blues Explosion’s Bellbottoms that soundtracks the opening heist, that familiar combination of muscle and musicality is patently clear.”
Whathifi denon avr-x6400h review
“It’s a surprisingly musical amplifier, with a wonderfully fluid sense of dynamics that keeps you hooked on every word and action unfolding on screen.”

One review can be too many. Subjective description in the first example I would hope was describing the music; the second seems is just reviewer garbage.

I've got several avrs (and had a few others), playing music through them is fine. The whole warm/bright (strident?....what's that?) thing I find to be worth ignoring as well...look to your speakers/room for those sorts of things. I'd choose the amp on its features/connectivity that suit your needs and budget. The 4400 looks to be very good value while they're being closed out.

As to your list: I can't help you with the Yamaha AI thing; I've read nicer things about Heos (fewer problems) but no experience with either (I stream and tie multiple systems together with Chromecast Audio units myself); Marantz avrs I don't think have much to do with the reputation of "warmth" of much older gear made by perhaps the original owner of the brand long ago, seems just marketing to me altho haven't owned a Marantz since the 70s/80s but have heard a few systems run by modern Marantz avrs; I don't think Yamaha has an advantage here with "musicality" either; according to industry insider/forum member MCode Yamaha has topped a certain retailer/installer survey of reliability for a while and retains closer control of manufacturing in their own facilities than others who contract out much of it so there's maybe a bit of value there (but lately I have seen several reports of issues with Yamahas so who knows, when it comes to consumer electronics and current manufacturing/distribution practices....they're more similar than different, sometimes you get a lemon so good return options are a good thing as I think most electronics will fail soon or much much later); the upper end Yamahas I thought were 4 ohm rated but its been a while since I paid attention to them for the most part; DAC chip comparison doesn't get you far in any meaningful way; there can be differences among the various room eq/dsp offerings, I've had good experience with Audyssey XT32 (and I have an older unit pre-dating the current additional app that gives even more options), altho if I were shopping now I might look to something with Dirac for a new experience.

 

[snakeeyes]

I have the 2016 and 2017 Yamahas and I really like using Airplay instead of Musicast but I also use the Pandora plus. None of these have any issues on the 2060 or 681 or the 770 Yamahas.

 

[lucifer4620]

Happy New Year.
First, thanks to all who have commented.
I think I’ve narrowed things down to Yamaha RX-A2070, Marantz SR7012, or Denon AVRX4400H. All are prior year models and the feature set difference to current year models don’t seem to be worth the $ to me.

One question is whether any of you have had any exposure to DTS Virtual X. I currently have a 5.1 setup and will not be able to get ceiling speakers in the current location so using Virtual X might add some value. The Marantz shows this feature as a firmware upgrade. The Audioholics review of the SR7012 seemed to favor this feature. I don’t see this available on the other two. Has anyone actually used this?

 

[PENG]

Happy New Year.
First, thanks to all who have commented.
I think I’ve narrowed things down to Yamaha RX-A2070, Marantz SR7012, or Denon AVRX4400H. All are prior year models and the feature set difference to current year models don’t seem to be worth the $ to me.

One question is whether any of you have had any exposure to DTS Virtual X. I currently have a 5.1 setup and will not be able to get ceiling speakers in the current location so using Virtual X might add some value. The Marantz shows this feature as a firmware upgrade. The Audioholics review of the SR7012 seemed to favor this feature. I don’t see this available on the other two. Has anyone actually used this?

Happy New Year!

I haven't bother to try virtual as I generally prefer the real thing but I am going to try and let you know. If you are talking about the SR7012 and AVR-X4400H (virtually twins),I am not sure if they were built in or updated via FW, the lower models were done via FW.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20171120005783/en/DTS-Partners-Sound-United-Deliver-World’s-AV

By the way, before you ask any other questions regarding the SR7012/AVR-X4400H, they offer the same in terms surround modes/formats, basically anything DSP related, as they are really identical on the digital side. The SR7012 has the HDAM modules and 7.1 analog inputs, that's it. Some claim they have different sound signature, I heard none, and found nothing scientific to support such claims, but I do believe golden ears can hear differences they heard/read about.

Between the two, I see no reason to pay more for the Marantz (been there, done that too..) unless you need the 7.1 analog for some funny reasons. For reliability, go for the Yamaha, as long as if you are sure you won't get interested in 7.1.4 Atmos/Auro3D.

Since,you ask, now I am going to watch a movie or two and compare virtual X to neural X.

 

[TabCam]

Another musical option is the NAD 758 v3. Not only powerful enough but it includes Dirac Live which help in almost any room and even when you have an acoustic perfect room, it improves your speakers impulse and phase. I see it priced for 1299. No sign of DTS virtual X though and I would not hold my breath for it.

There is a review on the Dirac site site and one From soundandvision with measurements. Not yet posted 5 times , otherwise I would have posted them as real links. Now you just have to add www.

soundandvision.com/content/nad-t758-v3-av-receiver-review
dirac.com/media-coverage/2018/7/5/secrets-of-home-theater-nad-t758-v3-av-surround-sound-receiver-review

And another thought about how an amplifier ‘sounds’, it depends very much on your room and speakers. If you have neutral speakers, the upstream components can sound different because of distortions. If you have a bright (treble emphasizing) or warm (harmonics inducing) speaker set, an opposite amplifier will sound better.

 

[PENG]

Another musical option is the NAD 758 v3. Not only powerful enough but it includes Dirac Live which help in almost any room and even when you have an acoustic perfect room, it improves your speakers impulse and phase. I see it priced for 1299. No sign of DTS virtual X though and I would not hold my breath for it.

There is a review on the Dirac site site and one From soundandvision with measurements. Not yet posted 5 times , otherwise I would have posted them as real links. Now you just have to add www.

soundandvision.com/content/nad-t758-v3-av-receiver-review
dirac.com/media-coverage/2018/7/5/secrets-of-home-theater-nad-t758-v3-av-surround-sound-receiver-review

And another thought about how an amplifier ‘sounds’, it depends very much on your room and speakers. If you have neutral speakers, the upstream components can sound different because of distortions. If you have a bright (treble emphasizing) or warm (harmonics inducing) speaker set, an opposite amplifier will sound better.

I read the S&V one, I would ignore the subjective part because that's the subjective view/impression of the reviewer. The bench test results are not very impressive, very average in fact. Looks like an overpriced product perhaps to due anticipated low sales volume. NAD made a smart choice including Dirac though.

 

[lucifer4620]

Thanks again to all who have chimed in. Like all things subjective, there are fans of each brand/unit.
The good news is that all are good and any will be a material upgrade to what I have. I'm saving my Carver 125wpc THX amp for extra support if needed in the future but I've pulled the trigger on the Marantz 7012.
Without traveling a few hours, the chance to audition units head to head was impossible - not to mention the room config and speaker differences. I know the Denon is basically the same for lower $ (HDAM aside). My first preamp was a Yamaha and I loved it and the Aventage 3070 was a great unit and one of my final 2. However the other rating factor in play was one of the more critical ones and always most difficult to measure. The Marantz had a higher WAF (your mileage may vary). And for the record, I like the porthole look. I'll use an app or flip down the panel if I need to see other detail.
The box shows up Monday and then playtime begins!

 

[PENG]

Thanks again to all who have chimed in. Like all things subjective, there are fans of each brand/unit.
The good news is that all are good and any will be a material upgrade to what I have. I'm saving my Carver 125wpc THX amp for extra support if needed in the future but I've pulled the trigger on the Marantz 7012.
Without traveling a few hours, the chance to audition units head to head was impossible - not to mention the room config and speaker differences. I know the Denon is basically the same for lower $ (HDAM aside). My first preamp was a Yamaha and I loved it and the Aventage 3070 was a great unit and one of my final 2. However the other rating factor in play was one of the more critical ones and always most difficult to measure. The Marantz had a higher WAF (your mileage may vary). And for the record, I like the porthole look. I'll use an app or flip down the panel if I need to see other detail.
The box shows up Monday and then playtime begins!

Congrats, good choice, much better value than comparable NAD and Anthem's imo. I like the port hole too, look great in my 2 channel system.