Enough power to drive KEF ls50? Pioneer sx s30 /Yamaha rn 602

[pressa]

Hello.

Been reading for some time but can't seem to find info on this comparison.

Looking to build a 2 channel, music only setup. Room is medium sized. Speakers are KEF ls 50.

Looking to buy an integrated amp, but do have some specific requirements. The amp needs to have AirPlay, have a USB at the front where I can plug in my iPod. Equally important is good sound/power for music. I really don't want to pay more than $800 but could if an appropriate reason.

This has lead me to the Pioneer sx- s30 or the Yamaha rn 602. Both seem suitable but perhaps the pioneer has less power? They appeared to be measured differently so not positive I'm right.

Could anyone make a Comment on quality for my setup? The last idea is its possible I'll upgrade to towers I'm the future so would like to be somewhat future proof in this regard.

Appreciated.

 

[PENG]

Hello.

Been reading for some time but can't seem to find info on this comparison.

Looking to build a 2 channel, music only setup. Room is medium sized. Speakers are KEF ls 50.

Looking to buy an integrated amp, but do have some specific requirements. The amp needs to have AirPlay, have a USB at the front where I can plug in my iPod. Equally important is good sound/power for music. I really don't want to pay more than $800 but could if an appropriate reason.

This has lead me to the Pioneer sx- s30 or the Yamaha rn 602. Both seem suitable but perhaps the pioneer has less power? They appeared to be measured differently so not positive I'm right.

Could anyone make a Comment on quality for my setup? The last idea is its possible I'll upgrade to towers I'm the future so would like to be somewhat future proof in this regard.

Appreciated.

My standard response to such frequently ask question is, the AVR-X3400H is that "integrated amp", just pretend it has only two channels, no tuner and no video. For $599, no real integrated would come close to the specs and real world sound quality performance of that AVR. I have used to power the LS50, I almost thought the combo sounded better than my separates (real ones) that costed many times more.

 

[lovinthehd]

Your comments about the different power specs made me go look. Indeed they are presented quite differently. Who needs a government entity to enforce a spec standard on manufacturers and their marketing people, tho? I'm sure the industry left up to their own "standards", we'll be just fine for the consumer to make comparisons.... LOL

For the Pioneer SX-S30: 4 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 1 kHz; rated 50 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more than 1% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output. Couldn't find an 8 ohm spec in even the manual.

For the Yamaha R-N602: Maximum power per channel (1 kHz, 0.7% THD, 4Ω ................................................ 105 W

These were the most comparable, at 4 ohm. Seems the Yamaha is significantly more powerful in any case. Even then will only make a 3dB difference or so....depends if this will suffice for your needs, i.e. at your desired listening levels at the distance you'll be from the speakers with allowance for peaks/overhead).

By comparison the Denon 3400 that Peng mentions doesn't show an equivalent 4 ohm spec, but is showing a somewhat similar 6 ohm spec (135 W + 135 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) so 4 ohm performance is likely somewhat better than even the Yamaha. I'd tend to agree that an avr may be a bit overkill in features (and is really intended to use a separate display for setup), but for the money.....whether or not the fewer components really mean more reliability in the Pioneer or Yamaha units...hard to know as they haven't been out all that long. The Denon would be more useful in terms of bass management (for a sub, which you don't mention).

 

[pressa]

Your comments about the different power specs made me go look. Indeed they are presented quite differently. Who needs a government entity to enforce a spec standard on manufacturers and their marketing people, tho? I'm sure the industry left up to their own "standards", we'll be just fine for the consumer to make comparisons.... LOL

For the Pioneer SX-S30: 4 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 1 kHz; rated 50 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more than 1% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output. Couldn't find an 8 ohm spec in even the manual.

For the Yamaha R-N602: Maximum power per channel (1 kHz, 0.7% THD, 4Ω ................................................ 105 W

These were the most comparable, at 4 ohm. Seems the Yamaha is significantly more powerful in any case. Even then will only make a 3dB difference or so....depends if this will suffice for your needs, i.e. at your desired listening levels at the distance you'll be from the speakers with allowance for peaks/overhead).

By comparison the Denon 3400 that Peng mentions doesn't show an equivalent 4 ohm spec, but is showing a somewhat similar 6 ohm spec (135 W + 135 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) so 4 ohm performance is likely somewhat better than even the Yamaha. I'd tend to agree that an avr may be a bit overkill in features (and is really intended to use a separate display for setup), but for the money.....whether or not the fewer components really mean more reliability in the Pioneer or Yamaha units...hard to know as they haven't been out all that long. The Denon would be more useful in terms of bass management (for a sub, which you don't mention).

Thank you both for your outstanding replies. I had not considered the Denon. I think the Denon is future proof, definitely more power and good value. However I'm not sure it's perfect for me.

I really don't play music much above "normal medium listening volume". I'm looking for the experience I had in the show room. The Kefs sounded so full and rich even at moderate levels. It was run through an As-701, I think. I'm slightly concerned the Pioneer might sound "weak", even though it fits well in my cabinet, has all the features and is modestly cheaper. Perhaps I'm wrong at modest levels?

The other thing is digital interference. I'm not sure I want to go endlessly down this road but all the ports/connections/digital etc could affect signal. Less may be more with the pioneer/Yamaha. My own Devils advocate: Denon is awesome. Oh the choices.

Currently leaning towards Yamaha rn 602 for the slight extra power....

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you both for your outstanding replies. I had not considered the Denon. I think the Denon is future proof, definitely more power and good value. However I'm not sure it's perfect for me.

I really don't play music much above "normal medium listening volume". I'm looking for the experience I had in the show room. The Kefs sounded so full and rich even at moderate levels. It was run through an As-701, I think. I'm slightly concerned the Pioneer might sound "weak", even though it fits well in my cabinet, has all the features and is modestly cheaper. Perhaps I'm wrong at modest levels?

The other thing is digital interference. I'm not sure I want to go endlessly down this road but all the ports/connections/digital etc could affect signal. Less may be more with the pioneer/Yamaha. My own Devils advocate: Denon is awesome. Oh the choices.

Currently leaning towards Yamaha rn 602 for the slight extra power....

I've not experienced this digital interference/processing in the same box particularly that seems to be such a concern to some (and the digital circuitry still exists if you want to utilize the dac/wifi features in the two 2ch units). You can always switch the avr (and assume the integrated amps you mention) to pure direct to turn off extraneous circuitry.

Maybe use this spl calculator to get an idea of your power requirements http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[KEW]

Currently leaning towards Yamaha rn 602 for the slight extra power....

You might also consider the Yamaha rn-803. I know someone said it has the same amp section as the A-S701, but I'd do some double checking to make sure.

Refurbished, it goes for $500:
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrn803bl/yamaha-r-n803-2-ch-x-100-watts-networking-stereo-receiver/1.html#!more

New, it goes for $750:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Yamaha+rn-803&rlz=1C1VSNC_enUS559US559&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF08z15LTfAhXmT98KHWw5AF4Q_AUIDigB&biw=1366&bih=657#spd=8113970517716651966

 

[PENG]

The A-S801 and 701 are to some extent avr based, using some of the same or similar mch ICs. The AVR-X3300w has comparable performance to that of the A-S801 based on AH's bench tests. Many AVRs have better noise measurements than comparable integrated amps so there should be no worry there.

If 2ch is a must, imo the R-N803 would be my choice.

 

[lovinthehd]

The A-S801 and 701 are to some extent avr based, using some of the same or similar mch ICs. The AVR-X3300w has comparable performance to that of the A-S801 based on Who's bench tests. Many AVRs have better noise measurements than comparable integrated amps so there should be no worry there.

If 2ch is a must, imo the R-N803 would be my choice.

"Who's" bench tests?

 

[PENG]

"Who's" bench tests?

I hate auto correct..

 

[lovinthehd]

I hate auto correct..

Yeah, why I don't use it. I just couldn't figure out what was close...What(hifi) came closest I thought

 

[PENG]

Hello @lovinthehd, I recommended the AVR-X3400H many times now since their price drop to $599, so I thought I should take a look of the quantitative side of the SQ equation. Below are what I managed to compile quickly based on Gene's bench test results. I thought if you have a few minute you can do a random check for correctness just in case.

If there are no mistakes, one can see that while using a 7.1 AVR for 2.1 use is highly unorthodox, there is no reason to believe an pseudo AVR derived such as the highly regarded A-S801 would be audible superior. The difference in power output between the 2 should be less than 1 dB. Surprisingly (because like NAD, dynamic output it suppose to be part of Yamaha's strong suit),the budget AVR actually has better dynamic output than the integrated amp.

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/yamaha-a-s801-amplifier-review/yamaha-a-s801-measurements
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/enon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

AVR-X3300W vs Sony A-S801

Full bandwidth, 0.1% THD, 2 Channel driven into 4/8 ohm loads:
X3300W - 154 W/105 W
A-S801 - 185 W/105 W

1 kHz sweep, 0.1% THD, 2 Channel driven into 4/8 ohm loads:
X3300W - 165 W/ 119 W
A-S801 - 188 W/118 W

1 kHz sweep, 1% THD, 2 channel driven into 4/8 ohm loads:
X3300W - 180 W/ 132 W
A-S801 - 199 W/125 W

Dynamic power, into 4 ohms, 1% THD, 1/2 Channel driven:
X3300W - 322 W/277 W
A-S801 - 295 W/260 W

Signal to noise: (Note that Denon's 90 dB was "unweighted" and with only 100 mV input drive so I guess it actually outperform the A-S801 in this department)

The AVR-X3300W preamp output exhibited a low noise floor (90dB) unweighted with 100mV input drive.

With a 200mVrms input, I measured > 89dB at 1 watt output and >93dB with A-wt filter engaged. This is a great result and demonstrates why I felt the noise floor on this product was completely inaudible.
The DAC performance isn't quite as pristine as the analog section but it's still good nonetheless. At full digital scale (0dBFs, 2Vrms out),SNR was >100dB A-wt. This translates down to 83dB at -20dBFS or 200mVrms output.

 

[Trell]

Here is a measurement of the AVR-X3400W: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench

Also, the receiver has the excellent Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction. Works fine even for two speakers.

 

[pressa]

While some of this hasn't gotten a bit beyond my knowledge set, it is enlightening. The main goal is still high quality music listening with the KEF LS50.

The comment on the Denon x3400h made me look. Is you feel this is superior for the goal, then getting the x2400h seems just as good and solves the price different issue?

Edit: I'm actually still considering the pioneer sx s30. Keeps getting highly regarded so music listening.

 

[pressa]

Due to space issues, and reading the pioneer sx sc30 is strong for music, I went and bought it. Bought the KEF ls50 as well but they didn't have in stock, picking up later.

Obviously interested, I went home and setup the pioneer in lieu of my older Yamaha v661 which was powering a pair of psb 4t towers(fairly small towers). I have never really liked the speaker and Yamaha combo, speaker sounded a bit lifeless prior to. Instantly upon plugging in the pioneer it was noticeably different. Bass was considerably richer, you could hear pieces of the music that you hadn't heard before. Clearly the pioneer had some strength of the Yamaha did not. It really was significant. I'm not ready to say the pioneer can drive the KEFs yet, but I'm actually start to think that it might do well.

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't know what to tell ya, even your Yamaha had a more powerful amp section spec'd than the Pioneer. Let us know how it works out with the new speakers installed.

 

[PENG]

Bass was considerably richer, you could hear pieces of the music that you hadn't heard before. Clearly the pioneer had some strength of the Yamaha did not. It really was significant. I'm not ready to say the pioneer can drive the KEFs yet, but I'm actually start to think that it might do well.

Like HD, I don't know what to tell you either. You believe what you believe and hear what you hear. That little class D unit looks very cute but I would never use it to drive any PSB towers except may be in my smaller guest bed room. Base on specs, you can do so much better with any 2017 lower mid range D&M, Onkyo, Sony or Yamaha AVR for $200-$300 more. That's a lot of money, but I really doubt that Pioneer can do a good job for you if you are serious about getting the best sound quality possible from the LS50 or the PSB towers.

 

[PENG]

The comment on the Denon x3400h made me look. Is you feel this is superior for the goal, then getting the x2400h seems just as good and solves the price different issue?

The X2400H or the X3400H can drive the LS50 if your seating distance is less than 10 ft (or better still, 6 to 8 feet) in a small to small medium size room, and don't listen to music louder than reference level. The difference between the two should be negligible, I recommended the X3400H only because it has preamp outputs so if you ever need more power output you can simply add an external power amplifier.

 

[lovinthehd]

The X2400H or the X3400H can drive the LS50 if your seating distance is less than 10 ft (or better still, 6 to 8 feet) in a small to small medium size room, and don't listen to music louder than reference level. The difference between the two should be negligible, I recommended the X3400H only because it has preamp outputs so if you ever need more power output you can simply add an external power amplifier.

I think the 3400 is worth it for the combo of XT32 and the pre-outs....and if looking to save money consider accessories4less.com if you haven't already.

 

[pressa]

I don't have a lot of time, but again appreciate the input. I will stick with my assumption that the PSB tower sounded great to me. It got me optimistic. I set up the KEF and they are clearly lovely. Only listened for a few hours. Running through the Pioneer. If I had space I would have gone with the 2400h, but not close to fitting my space.

My initial reaction was slightly underwhelmed. It seemed to be missing the lower end fullness of the store. Still very detailed and full sound but better on the upper end compared to the base. Like I wasn't giving it the fuel they were really designed for. For tomorrow I brought up my surprisingly handy KEF Sub. This normally goes with my 5.1 "Egg" system hidden on the main floor. See if this can fill it out.

What I shouldnt admit(but who cares), I set up the Sub tonight. I ran the auto set up and informed the pioneer that the subwoofer was there. Started playing music and was instantly impressed. Adding the subwoofer had helped… Upon closer review it appears the subwoofer may not of been working… It makes you wonder how influential listening can be.
As great as they are, I am considering going for Klipsch Rm-160m unheard. Have 15 days where I can apparently exchange or return. I hope this is honoured if the sub woofer doesn't work out. More efficient and maybe a better match.