Where Do I Go From Here?

[devinthedude57]

I recently purchased some new speakers, and one of the unexpected outcomes is I am now stumped as to what should be upgraded next. I would love to hear where you all think I can best improve my setup. Here's what I'm working with now:

Custom-built HTPC (generally based on the Dec. 2016 specs found at techbuyersguru.com)
Seagate Backup+ 8TB USB 3.0 external hard drive (contains all of my digital music, about 90% lossless, mostly flac ranging from redbook to 24/192, some surround files as well)
M-Audio Profire 610 (via Firewire, running both coaxial digital and analog stereo outputs)
Oppo BDP-83 (HDMI and analog stereo out)
xfinity X1 cable box, AppleTV, PS3, etc.
vintage Pioneer PL-50 turntable (with Denon DL-110 cart)
Cambridge Audio 640p phono preamp
Sony STR-DN840 AV Reciever
Elac Uni-Fi UF5, UC5 (for LRC)
Elac Debut OW4.2 (for SL+SR)
Elac Debut B6.2 (nowhere yet, but price was too good to pass up)
Elac SUB3010
Vizio XVT553SV

As you can see, this setup has been pieced together over the years, with components upgraded as my budget has allowed, emphasizing great value at a reasonable price. The latest addition has been the Elac speakers, and while they sound good, their low nominal impedance (4-ohms) and sensitivity (rated 85dB at 2.83 v/1m) has me concerned that my Sony AVR isn't enough to deliver clean power to them properly, and they could sound much better. My receiver is rated at 150w (6-ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9% THD, 1-ch driven) and 115w (6-ohms, 1 kHz, 1% THD, 2-ch driven). This has led me down the rabbit hole of separates, looking into preamp/processors, amplifiers, DACs, network streamers, etc. Before I begin down that road, however, I wanted to get some advice from you guys about what my next step should be.

I've been eyeing-up the Emotiva XMC-1 Pre/Pro and XPA-5 Gen3 Amp, but am concerned that spending $4,000 powering speakers that cost less than $2,000 is probably overkill. The reason these have stood out to me is because they are modular/upgradeable, and can produce surround sound. There seems to be endless options for any budget if I wanted to run in just stereo, but once I get into surround, it's pretty much AVRs or expensive separates. I'm perfectly happy with maxing out at 5.1, and have no interest in Dolby Atmos or anything like that, so my question is this: where do I go from here? The different paths I've come up with are:

1. Get a decent DAC and AVR (perhaps with pre-outs to power a stereo amp...)
2. Get a NAS for my HTPC instead of the external hard drive, or maybe a network streaming device like the Cambridge Audio CXN
3. Determing that my home theater setup is perfectly fine, and making a 2nd all-analog setup in another room with the Elac B6.2s, upgrading the turntable and getting a decent stereo amp
4. Getting the latest and greatest UHD/4k TV (and spend $30,000 or however much the Oppo UDP-205 is going for at the moment...)

Obviously I can't just be happy with what I have, otherwise my AV-Enthusiast membership would be revoked, so help me out. What should I do next?

 

[Kvn_Walker]

The rabbit hole of "knowing it could sound better" is infinitely deep. But it sounds like you know that already.

The real question is do you feel there's anything actually wrong with your system as it is now? Knowing you can do better (at your expense) and being audibly unhappy aren't the same.

Money-wise I think your first place to look is the receiver. Perhaps one that is rated for 4 ohm loads and has true full band (20-20k) wattage ratings instead of 1khz specs. I think you can find your needs met without spending $4k.

Regarding sensitivity, people look at that number like they look at MPG on a car's Monroney sticker, except that there's no regulatory body making sure your speaker manufacturer is telling you the truth. Some companies overinflate those numbers (bigger is better!), some try to be honest with it. Some do honestly meet those high numbers, but not without other design sacrifices or significant cost. But whatever it actually is (and I'd trust Elac to be honest with their measurements), you can't change it without changing your speakers. If your biggest fear is not getting the dB's (again, are you actually dissatisfied with what you hear now?), you'd be better served putting 4 grand into high-efficiency 8-ohm speakers instead of more electronics.

 

[Joe B]

Have you ever considered looking into power conditioning and shielded power cables to lower the noise floor of your system? Reducing RFI and EMI can lead to very nice improvements in your audio and video equipment. And if you're running digital coaxial cables or RCA interconnects, good shielded cables make improvements there as well. Something to investigate.

 

[XEagleDriver]

Devin,
I like Option 3.
However, if I was asked to identify the weakest link in your set up I would nominate the sub.
Did you consider an upgrade to that portion of the system; SVS, Rythmik, HSU?
XEagleDriver

 

[lovinthehd]

Are you getting the loudness you like from the speakers now without distortion/clipping issues? Being of lower impedance and sensitivity might make sense to get more capable amplification if you really need it, especially if you setup as 7ch. I'd also go with your hunch that spending more on amps than speakers is somewhat backwards (and I stay away from low impedance/low sensitivity speakers for the most part).

Seems your vinyl playback is already fine, you're really getting into diminishing returns from there. Splitting up the gear and setting up a 2ch system in another room I suppose if you want to do your listening in the different rooms....

I can't imagine why a "shielded power cable" would be necessary let alone power conditioning but maybe you have serious radiation/electrical issues like Joe apparently does (where the heck do you live Joe B?). I've never had an issue with wall power or RFI issues with my gear in the last 45 years in several US states/cities.

More information about room volume, distance you are from speakers etc might be helpful.

OTOH maybe you should just buy more stuff to enjoy the current gear with instead of worrying about the gear....

 

[Beave]

Are you getting the loudness you like from the speakers now without distortion/clipping issues? Being of lower impedance and sensitivity might make sense to get more capable amplification if you really need it, especially if you setup as 7ch. I'd also go with your hunch that spending more on amps than speakers is somewhat backwards (and I stay away from low impedance/low sensitivity speakers for the most part).

Seems your vinyl playback is already fine, you're really getting into diminishing returns from there. Splitting up the gear and setting up a 2ch system in another room I suppose if you want to do your listening in the different rooms....

I can't imagine why a "shielded power cable" would be necessary let alone power conditioning but maybe you have serious radiation/electrical issues like Joe apparently does (where the heck do you live Joe B?). I've never had an issue with wall power or RFI issues with my gear in the last 45 years in several US states/cities.

More information about room volume, distance you are from speakers etc might be helpful.

OTOH maybe you should just buy more stuff to enjoy the current gear with instead of worrying about the gear....

Agreed with underlined portion. Power conditioners and specially shielded power cables are hardly ever necessary. Same with special cables for digital coax or analog interconnects.

 

[Beave]

I'd say, before spending any more money buying "upgrades," look for free upgrades in terms of making sure your room and speakers and listening location are optimized in their setup & location. That means placing speakers thoughtfully, measuring response if desired, placing subwoofer in a good spot, moving furniture around if needed, placing the listening position in a good spot, etc. All that can often get you a good upgrade at no cost (other than perhaps an angry spouse or a bad back).

 

[MrBoat]

I can't imagine why a "shielded power cable" would be necessary let alone power conditioning but maybe you have serious radiation/electrical issues like Joe apparently does (where the heck do you live Joe B?). I've never had an issue with wall power or RFI issues with my gear in the last 45 years in several US states/cities.

I have been at this a lifetime by now, and have lived in the deep south for most of it. I lived in a town that was so behind the times, that there was no McD's, public transportation or government services. Even AC was late getting a foothold there and a couple homes I lived in, still had the old, knob & tube wiring! Still, I never had an issue with any noise other than amp hum from hand-me-down equipment that was not cleaned regularly and lived in humidity (I lived on a saltwater bay) exceeding 90%.

The only time I can get noise is if I have my boom box hooked up next to where I am welding, the process I use having continuous high frequency as a way to start/stabilize the arc. At my shop, the balanced connections on the JBL monitors is immune to this interference, which would be more extreme than any municipal power could muster.

 

[mtrycrafts]

If your room is large enough, much larger TV should be on the shopping list with a much better subwoofer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The next thing to do is to audition other expensive speakers and compare to the sound of your speakers.

If they don’t truly sound better than your system, then you don’t need to spend another dime.

Just make sure to close your eyes and don’t stare at those $20K speakers. Imagine they are cheap and ugly.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Most definitely another vote for subwoofer upgrade.

 

[Verdinut]

Have you ever considered looking into power conditioning and shielded power cables to lower the noise floor of your system? Reducing RFI and EMI can lead to very nice improvements in your audio and video equipment. And if you're running digital coaxial cables or RCA interconnects, good shielded cables make improvements there as well. Something to investigate.

Where did you get info that shielded power cables would reduce the noise floor of a sound system? That's inexact.

 

[JerryLove]

Have you ever considered looking into power conditioning and shielded power cables to lower the noise floor of your system? Reducing RFI and EMI can lead to very nice improvements in your audio and video equipment. And if you're running digital coaxial cables or RCA interconnects, good shielded cables make improvements there as well. Something to investigate.

Literally, the only part of that that is accurate is that shielded RCA cables *can*, especially on long runs, pick up audible interference.

Power is conditioned by the amp, "noise floor" is a factor in dynamic range; and the gear is capable of better-than-human range already (the source is generally the most limited portion), and digital cables are immune to interference until it's so high that it actually starts making the bits unreadable.

 

[devinthedude57]

Sorry for the radio-silence. Got busy at work, and haven't gotten a chance to get back into this. Actually, I haven't even gotten a chance to hook up the OW4.2 surrounds and SUB3010 yet, as they will be across the room from the rest of the gear, and I will be running the cables into the wall and under the floor.

Now that I've had some time to live with the new speakers, here are my impressions:

I'm impressed by the bass response I'm getting from just the UF5's on their own. They're rated 42Hz-25kHz, but it gets listenable extension down to the mid-30s. I am absolutely still going to be running the sub, but it has still been enjoyable listening to music and watching movies without one.

The STR-DN840 has been performing pretty well with these relatively-inefficient speakers. Both I and my wife have found that we are turning it up about +10 more than we used to, from around the 20's to the 30's of whatever volume unit Sony uses. I'm still planning on getting a better amp in the future, but it is not my most pressing concern. That would be by PC audio situation.

Right now, I have the PC hooked up to the M-Audio Profire 610 via FireWire, and then fed to the receiver with both coax SPDIF and Hosa CPR-202 Dual 1/4" TS to Dual RCA analog interconnects. The coax is doing fine, but the analog gets a hiss the louder I turn it up, which is necessary more often now with the Elacs, especially with music that hasn't been brickwalled. The strange thing is, the analog hookup has become decidedly better sounding than the digital with the UF5s, so I would prefer to listen to it that way now.

While testing a microphone I was trying to fix a few months ago, I accidentally hit the phantom power button on the M-Audio Profire 610, and I broke something. One of the TS/XLR indicator LEDs on the front is constantly lit green, and I can hear/see in the mixer that "Analog In 2" has noise at all times, but muting that input prevents it from effecting playback.

Between FireWire becoming a legacy interconnect, the blown input, the analog hissing at high volume, and the proliferation of quality USB DACs on the market, I think it's time to replace the 610. So my question becomes now, what should I get?

The Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 seems to be the equivalent replacement, but I would like to focus more on "hi-fi" devices vs "pro audio". I'm not going to be recording an album any time soon, so the instrument hookups aren't necessary, and who knows what the DAC they have in there is. What I like about it, however, is SPDIF in/out to pass digital audio directly to the processor to decode, and the ability to have the PC decode it and pass the analog signal through multichannel outputs.

I have a bunch of surround digital files (both lossy and lossless, including DSD) that I want to be able to continue listening to, and it seems like most of the USB DACs I've looked at are stereo-only. Why is there no love for digital surround music?? I know I mentioned it in my original posting, but the Oppo UDP-205 has everything I'm looking for (USB input, coax inputs and outputs, discreet surround analog outputs, and a high quality analog stereo output stage), but they're going for INSANE prices now that Oppo has discontinued operation.

So, to answer my original question of "where do I go from here?", I'm going to replace the 610 with a USB DAC that has digital coax and high quality stereo outputs. Recommendations? I would like to spend hundreds, not thousands of dollars, so I've been looking at the Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus as a possiblity. I apologize for the long post, but I just haven't been able to figure out a solution, and appreciate any and all input.

 

[Joe B]

Literally, the only part of that that is accurate is that shielded RCA cables *can*, especially on long runs, pick up audible interference.

Power is conditioned by the amp, "noise floor" is a factor in dynamic range; and the gear is capable of better-than-human range already (the source is generally the most limited portion), and digital cables are immune to interference until it's so high that it actually starts making the bits unreadable.

Power is conditioned by the amp? Power conditioners which remove any DC current on the line restore the symmetry of the AC sine wave and prevent transformers from making noise. I have never read/heard about an amp that has this capability, though I'm sure there are some extremely expensive units out there that have this feature. This also goes with EM and RF interference on the mains. (I wish I could find the post by the President of PS Audio who said that, "theoretically", DC on the mains feeding even their best power regenerators could cause audible distortion (hum) produced by the transformers in their power regenerator. He suggested that a sine wave balancing device feeding the power regenerator would prevent this.)

Noise floor is a factor of dynamic range. As far as I understand noise floor, there are 3 types. The noise floor of the listening environment (dogs barking, HVAC, refrigerator running, etc.), the noise floor produced by the equipment you're listening to, and the noise floor of the recording. The last, obviously, can not be controlled by the end user. The first can be controlled by room treatment, location of the listening room, etc. The second can be controlled by power conditioners which re-balance the AC sine wave and remove EMI and RFI off the mains. The purpose of shielded power cables is to prevent EMI and RFI from re-entering the electrical supply between the power conditioner and the stereo components.

digital cables are immune to interference Optic fiber digital cables are immune to EMI and RFI, but coaxial cables are not. Digital coaxial cables are also capable of transmitting noise (ground loop hum, transformer hum, etc.) from one component to another. I have never seen a good digital coaxial cable that did not include shielding in its design to prevent EM and RF interference. I am assuming it is there because it is needed.

gear is capable of better-than-human range [hearing (?)] I know that at Audioholics it is accepted as a given that you can not hear audible differences between cables, DAC's, and bit/sample rates, etc. But it really depends on who the "you" is. Some people have excellent hearing and have trained themselves to listen....well. This video from Grammy winning mastering engineer Bob Ludwig contains a couple of anecdotal stories of how great some people's hearing is as well as one about being able to hear a difference from changing out cables:

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Right now, I have the PC hooked up to the M-Audio Profire 610 via FireWire, and then fed to the receiver with both coax SPDIF and Hosa CPR-202 Dual 1/4" TS to Dual RCA analog interconnects. The coax is doing fine, but the analog gets a hiss the louder I turn it up, which is necessary more often now with the Elacs, especially with music that hasn't been brickwalled. The strange thing is, the analog hookup has become decidedly better sounding than the digital with the UF5s, so I would prefer to listen to it that way now.

The reason the analog sounds better is most likely that your M-Audio has a better built-in DAC than the Sony does. I don't have experience with outboard DAC's so someone else will have to chime in with a recommendation. Although, I think the most cost-efficient route would be a better receiver with a superior DAC already built in.

 

[lovinthehd]

Power is conditioned by the amp? Power conditioners which remove any DC current on the line restore the symmetry of the AC sine wave and prevent transformers from making noise. I have never read/heard about an amp that has this capability, though I'm sure there are some extremely expensive units out there that have this feature. This also goes with EM and RF interference on the mains. (I wish I could find the post by the President of PS Audio who said that, "theoretically", DC on the mains feeding even their best power regenerators could cause audible distortion (hum) produced by the transformers in their power regenerator. He suggested that a sine wave balancing device feeding the power regenerator would prevent this.)

Noise floor is a factor of dynamic range. As far as I understand noise floor, there are 3 types. The noise floor of the listening environment (dogs barking, HVAC, refrigerator running, etc.), the noise floor produced by the equipment you're listening to, and the noise floor of the recording. The last, obviously, can not be controlled by the end user. The first can be controlled by room treatment, location of the listening room, etc. The second can be controlled by power conditioners which re-balance the AC sine wave and remove EMI and RFI off the mains. The purpose of shielded power cables is to prevent EMI and RFI from re-entering the electrical supply between the power conditioner and the stereo components.

digital cables are immune to interference Optic fiber digital cables are immune to EMI and RFI, but coaxial cables are not. Digital coaxial cables are also capable of transmitting noise (ground loop hum, transformer hum, etc.) from one component to another. I have never seen a good digital coaxial cable that did not include shielding in its design to prevent EM and RF interference. I am assuming it is there because it is needed.

gear is capable of better-than-human range [hearing (?)] I know that at Audioholics it is accepted as a given that you can not hear audible differences between cables, DAC's, and bit/sample rates, etc. But it really depends on who the "you" is. Some people have excellent hearing and have trained themselves to listen....well. This video from Grammy winning mastering engineer Bob Ludwig contains a couple of anecdotal stories of how great some people's hearing is as well as one about being able to hear a difference from changing out cables:

Sounds like someone is drinking the kool-aid....

 

[Joe B]

Sounds like someone is drinking the kool-aid....

I'm sure you won't have to hold your breath long before other members of the gang join in to ridicule and deride my post. But I am interested in what exactly I said that you find "out there".
Power is conditioned by the amp? So do you believe your amp conditions the power from your wall outlet?
Noise floor is a factor of dynamic range If we take this as it was meant, this is a true statement, but it does not negate my original post about lowering the noise floor of your equipment to increase the dynamic range. Is it better to have equipment that produces a lot of noise but has enough power to drown it out, or is it better to have silent equipment where the music comes out of a perfectly quiet, dark background. Sure you can overpower noise, but the result is not the same.
digital cables are immune to interference If digital cables are immune to interference, then why do manufactures include shielding in their designs. I guess even the guys at Blue Jean Cables have their heads where the sun doesn't shine.
gear is capable of better-than-human range [hearing (?)] This is the only thing I posted which I believe anyone could possibly argue about. That's why I posted the video of Bob Ludwig. Or perhaps his winning 11 Grammys as a mastering engineer was just sheer luck. Or perhaps Morten Lindberg of 2L Nordic Sound has been nominated 26 times in categories of Best Engineered Album, Best Surround Sound Album and Producer of the Year because he can only hear what everyone else can hear. I realize the attitude here is to discount whatever is said that is not in your schema, but that does not make your view point true. On good equipment, I believe plenty of people (who still have good hearing) could tell the difference between red book and 512DSD....I know I can.
Sounds like someone is drinking the kool-aid.... This is perfect. Exactly the response I anticipated.

 

[lovinthehd]

Then why did you post and even threaten to post further nonsense from McGowan? Why don't you instead support your claims with some actual references (real ones)?

 

[Joe B]

Then why did you post and even threaten to post further nonsense from McGowan? Why don't you instead support your claims with some actual references (real ones)?

even threaten to post further nonsense from McGowan?

Where is that coming from? I made no such threat. I believe you are over reacting.

support your claims

from https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm

Coaxial Digital Audio Cable: Belden 1694A
Our favorite cable for coaxial digital audio use (many others are available; see below) is Belden 1694A "Brilliance" precision digital video coaxial cable, a 75 ohm coax engineered for low signal loss over long runs. These cables are exceptionally well shielded to keep outside electromagnetic interference from entering and polluting the signal; the shielding consists of a combination of a dense (95% coverage) tinned copper braid and a double-sided aluminum-on-polyester foil, for the best protection both against EMI and RFI. View the technical specs for Belden 1694A.

If a power conditioner can remove DC on the mains, remove EMI and remove RFI, why would you not want to use shielded power cables between the power conditioner and the stereo components? Why risk re-introducing EM and RF interference after going to the effort of removing it? This seems elementary to me.

I have never heard or read that power is conditioned by an amplifier. If you have a reference for this I would love to see it. I honestly can't imagine how a device at the end of the electrical connection could condition the mains.

Dynamic range is the difference between how quiet and how loud a system can play. If a system has inherent noise, than lowering the noise floor (how quiet it is) can increase that same systems dynamic range. Don't tell me this needs to be supported by a double blind third party reviewed study. This is simple math/logic.

I have admitted that whether or not someone professes to be able to hear "beyond" the red book standard is debatable, but it was a line drawn in the sand by engineers, not audiologists and medical doctors. Making the claim that everyone has the same hearing ability is ridiculous. There are deaf people.

I've tried to keep this civil, but obviously what I posted has some how offended your view points on audio Truth. Just write me off as an audio heretic and have another glass of the Kool-Aid that gets passed around here as TRUTH! You'll feel better. Really. Have another sip.