The death of the sedan?

[Irvrobinson]

If you expect me to argue with on quality or appeal of American companies designed sedans, you'd have to wait quite a bit.
That said I rented Chevy Malibu plenty of times and didn't hate it at all. Even Cruz, while very slow to pick up speed, does deliver nice fuel mileage.
One of the sedans GM builds is Cadillac CTX is a nice enough car but suffers from terrible reliability (according to CR). They "just" need to improve quality and the reliability of the car and aim to compete vs japanize Acuras and Lexus. Right now they are delusional trying to position their car vs top-end German cars. I mean in rate Koreans cars are improving each year, I could easily see these match their Japanise competition unfortunately before American brands get there.

I agree. I've rented cars 59 times in the past two years, and many were Malibus. Agree that they don't suck. They actually handle better than all of the other FWD cars I've driven, but quality-wise they don't compare well. Lots of car for the price. My favorite rental cars are actually the Buicks, which are mostly Euro cars in an American disguise.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I mean [at the] rate Koreans cars are improving each year, I could easily see these match their Japanise competition unfortunately before American brands get there.

Agree here too. One interesting tidbit about Korean cars - on all of the Korean cars I saw *in Korea* all of the descriptive labels, inside and out, were in English.

 

[davidscott]

US car companies might regret this if the price of oil starts to rise again.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

I recently have read about GM closing plants. They are primarily getting rid of several sedans that are not as profitable as their trucks and SUV's.
Then, today, I was reading that Ford is getting rid of everything on the sedan side of a the crossover!

Is this just that Ford and GM are known as better at trucks, or is it a global (or national?) trend towards SUV/Trucks?

Ford actually made its announcement first, a few months ago.

Coupes, sedans, manual transmissions... all dead or dying. The automotive landscape is so boring right now.

 

[2channel lover]

We have a grocery chain that has an arrangement with BP for discounts, based on grocery purchases. We get points/dollar and it allows us to enter a code into the pump's keypad, which then asks if we want to use whatever the discount may be. I got a 100 point card in the mail and with my recent purchases, my price was twenty cents less than posted, which means I paid $1.889/gallon yesterday. The station closest to my house had it for $2.059/gallon but unfortunately, our gas has Ethanol in it.

We have something similar here...the most I've ever gotten off was a $1 a gal...which made the net about $1.42 for premium that day...had the wife come over with her vehicle and filled both up!

Generally we budget $30 per week each car, and rarely go over it with normal commuting driving.

 

[Midwesthonky]

One of the issues with sedans in the US is older cars from the 60's and 70's, while not reliable, had plenty of space. You could comfortably seat 6 adults. The trunks were large. My friend in high school drove a 74 Chrysler 2 door and you could fit 4 bodies in the trunk and have plenty of room for the shovels, tarps, boom box for music while digging, a cooler with cold beverages, a change of clothes, a hot tub, spare engine, etc. Today's sedans can barely fit two suitcases.

One aspect of fuel mileage that was not discussed on the new cars today is the impact of all the modern safety features. Those all add weight and weight hurts fuel mileage. Anti-lock brakes, back-up cameras, air bags, etc all add weight. So an ancient 1980's Honda Civic could get 45 mpg, but add on 500 lbs for safety and emissions gadgets and the mileage goes down. You'll survive a crash, but have lesser fuel mileage.

SUV's and crossovers are popular because of how they handle bad weather and also are great alternative kid haulers. I drive a Durango because I needed the cargo space and also sometimes haul up to 5-6 kids. Third row lets me do that. A modern sedan won't. I refuse to drive a minivan. Add in winter/ice up here and the AWD and that's why I drive what I drive. Years ago it would be a station wagon that I drove. But they don't make those anymore so it's an SUV.

So sedan's really don't work for me. Now, if I lived in a city in an apartment or a condo, I would look at a sedan. But I have a house, I haul crap, I tow crap. A sedan won't cut it for me.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I have one car which has great cargo space, fits 5 adults or 2 adults and 3 kids. Outback. I just may get out of places where Durango may get stuck . Of course, it can't haul much. I may trade in 2 years for a 3-row Ascent. I 100% agree, if you live in northern parts and own a house - you do need least one SUV or very good crossover at the least.
My reasons to get my second car as a sedan is I don't need two "tanks" or wholesale grocery haulers. I wanted a practical but still fun car, which doesn't cost arm and leg. 2018 Accord 2.0T EX-L checked most of my wishlist.
Probably closest "tank" which is somewhat fun is Acura MDX Hybrid Sport. The highlight on word sport, not Hybrid. Unfortunately, I didn't felt comfortable paying for nicely equipped MDX Hybrid - it's just too much, plus ancient electronics hold it down. Alfa's SUV is nice and sporty, but absolutely not practical as grocery getter nor as for the famous Alfa's lack of reliability. There German performance crossovers which are fast and fun, like BMW X3 M40, but just like MDX Hybrid are outside of my price comfort zone.

Edit: If I haven't made crystal clear by now, I think that Accord 2.0T is quite appealing to tech crowd who appreciate technology and efficiency.

 

[Verdinut]

I have one car which has great cargo space, fits 5 adults or 2 adults and 3 kids. Outback. I just may get out of places where Durango may get stuck . Of course, it can't haul much. I may trade in 2 years for a 3-row Ascent. I 100% agree, if you live in northern parts and own a house - you do need least one SUV or very good crossover at the least.
My reasons to get my second car as a sedan is I don't need two "tanks" or wholesale grocery haulers. I wanted a practical but still fun car, which doesn't cost arm and leg. 2018 Accord 2.0T EX-L checked most of my wishlist.
Probably closest "tank" which is somewhat fun is Acura MDX Hybrid Sport. The highlight on word sport, not Hybrid. Unfortunately, I didn't felt comfortable paying for nicely equipped MDX Hybrid - it's just too much, plus ancient electronics hold it down. Alfa's SUV is nice and sporty, but absolutely not practical as grocery getter not as famous Alfa's lack of reliability.

The Audi Q5 is in about the same price range as the Alfa but reported as reliable though.

That SUV is at the top of my list if I can afford to get it next year.

 

[CB22]

if I can afford to get it next year.

Nice choice, that would be awesome! Audi is my favorite luxury car. gorgeous and well designed cars! Hope it works out. Ever since i became an "adult" I was in for a rude awakening about the cost of these damn things to get from A to B. Vehicles aren't cheap - gas, insurance, maintenance, sales tax and what more am I forgetting. Now I'm of the mentally to run the thing till the damn engine dies.

 

[GO-NAD!]

We haven't had a sedan for the last 13 years. Prior to that, we had a Toyota Corolla, which my wife hated. It was reliable and great on gas. Didn't matter. So, we bought a Nissan X-Trail (never sold in the U.S.) and drove that for 12 years, then bought a Rogue SL, with all the Nanny safety features. I just keep thinking that it's just more crap that will eventually break. I do really like the all-around camera though. I had suggested that we replace the X-Trail with an AWD sedan - likely cheaper to purchase and operate - but she liked the higher ride height. And, it is certainly more versatile than a sedan, so I won't complain.

I have a 2011 Nissan Frontier Pro4X, which replaced a 2001 2-WD Ranger. That Ranger was cheap and fairly reliable, but even with snow tires, was horrendous in the snow. I'll never own a 2-WD pick-up again. This region can be hard on vehicles, with regard to corrosion, and the Ranger's frame essentially dissolved over the 11 years I owned it. The Frontier seems to be holding up much better. I like the convenience of having the pick-up: hauling firewood, garden mulch/soil, scrap, appliances, etc.

 

[highfigh]

We have something similar here...the most I've ever gotten off was a $1 a gal...which made the net about $1.42 for premium that day...had the wife come over with her vehicle and filled both up!

Generally we budget $30 per week each car, and rarely go over it with normal commuting driving.

I wish I could drive only as a commuter, but I have to drive for my business and that can be expensive.

 

[Midwesthonky]

I have one car which has great cargo space, fits 5 adults or 2 adults and 3 kids. Outback. I just may get out of places where Durango may get stuck . Of course, it can't haul much. I may trade in 2 years for a 3-row Ascent. I 100% agree, if you live in northern parts and own a house - you do need least one SUV or very good crossover at the least.
My reasons to get my second car as a sedan is I don't need two "tanks" or wholesale grocery haulers. I wanted a practical but still fun car, which doesn't cost arm and leg. 2018 Accord 2.0T EX-L checked most of my wishlist.
Probably closest "tank" which is somewhat fun is Acura MDX Hybrid Sport. The highlight on word sport, not Hybrid. Unfortunately, I didn't felt comfortable paying for nicely equipped MDX Hybrid - it's just too much, plus ancient electronics hold it down. Alfa's SUV is nice and sporty, but absolutely not practical as grocery getter not as famous Alfa's lack of reliability.

When I bought the Durango, I got the employee pricing. So it was many thousands less than alternatives. It's ok quality-wise, but still a F-C unit so the fuel door broke after 37,000 miles and only opens if I shove a soda straw in there and then hit the release. I'm not paying $500 for a replacement when I get soda straws with any drink or used to. It's an F-C unit. It's paid for now so it's run it into the ground mentality.

We did get the Subaru Ascent for wife. She loves the car. Tons of nanny features that would drive me bonkers over time, but I'm not the main driver. Heck, I have yet to drive it. She's happy and it hauls the kids and associated crap that is needed in a modern family. Gets decent fuel mileage too. It's a Subaru so bad driving conditions are no problem.

I used to work for a Fiat company. I've worked with the Italians. I'd stay away from Alfa's. Great sttyling, but the Italians still suffer from working the Italian way instead of the best way. Meaning, when making a supplier or technology decision, it's based on some relationship to somebody higher up. So they often end up with the not ideal part supplier or technology. Too many times, we were forced to go a less than ideal route because of some relationship to someone high up in Fiat. Half-dozen US suppliers provide ready to go software that we could have up and running with all the features we need in less than 6 months install time across all sites? Nope, go with this Italian company started by this guy who has 2 employees and yes it doesn't do anything that you want or need, but they will program it as we go and installation will be a 2 year ordeal for millions more $. Yep, the Italian way.

 

[2channel lover]

I wish I could drive only as a commuter, but I have to drive for my business and that can be expensive.

You get to write it off though.

I had a similar gig once and would routinely log 30-40k miles a year.

The job I had NJ to PHI...68 miles ea way...I hated that commute so I'm quite okay with my 17 mi commute now.

 

[highfigh]

You get to write it off though.

I had a similar gig once and would routinely log 30-40k miles a year.

The job I had NJ to PHI...68 miles ea way...I hated that commute so I'm quite okay with my 17 mi commute now.

But with repairs, wear & tear on the van AND me, the time and dealing with idiots in traffic, it's still a lot of money. If I was incorporated and if it was a personal vehicle, I could claim it all as non-reimbursed expenses AND be paid a wage for the time. If the fuel economy was good enough, I would actually make money for buying a new vehicle, as a friend did when he bought a Diesel Jetta- he was reimbursed 56.5 cents/mile and that car put him in the 800 Club, which is for people who got 800 miles out of their 14.5 gallon tank. The reimbursement was enough that it covered his car payment.

I like driving, but would rather do it for personal reasons and it's becoming harder to wait for retirement, so I can do what I want. Or, if the right job comes along, I would shut the business down and just go somewhere, to do that.

 

[2channel lover]

But with repairs, wear & tear on the van AND me, the time and dealing with idiots in traffic, it's still a lot of money. If I was incorporated and if it was a personal vehicle, I could claim it all as non-reimbursed expenses AND be paid a wage for the time. If the fuel economy was good enough, I would actually make money for buying a new vehicle, as a friend did when he bought a Diesel Jetta- he was reimbursed 56.5 cents/mile and that car put him in the 800 Club, which is for people who got 800 miles out of their 14.5 gallon tank. The reimbursement was enough that it covered his car payment.

I like driving, but would rather do it for personal reasons and it's becoming harder to wait for retirement, so I can do what I want. Or, if the right job comes along, I would shut the business down and just go somewhere, to do that.

It sucked for me, because I was W2 and couldn't write off those miles to the Philly job, but I went on my own in real estate for about 12 yrs and was able to claim many of those expenses, but it also knocked my taxable income down so it wasn't ideal if you were trying to buy a home and needed to show income.

Right job...I kinda did that almost by happenstance. I was working new construction sales in a model and had sold all of the lots and was waiting for a new subdivision to open up. My wife said there's a guy looking for an office manager, pay is decent if you want something in the interim.

I've been here 6 years now. Office desk 9 to 5 gig is something I hadn't done in a long time. I could probably make a little more than I'm grossing now, but I was able to keep my RE license active and do a little bit of that part time. Plus they paid the full premium for my wife and I on health insurance....that jumps the compensation up considerably...so at this point, I'm just trying to ride this for another 5 or 6 years....if so, that should set me up for a decent retirement.

 

[3db]

I'm now the owner of a Mitusbishi Oultander GT-SAWX with the 3 liter V6. We bought it so that we could pull a lightweight travel trailer. I like sitting higher in the SUV than I do in my 2013 Hyundai Elantra GT which by the way has been bullet proof. I only had one issue with the Elantra which was fixed under warranty.

Sitting higher is very appealing but it no longer holds asmuch of an advantage as it once did since there are more SUVs and minivans on the road.

 

[Irvrobinson]

This, I think it's short sighted of Ford to axe the majority of their cars. It wasn't that long ago gas with over $4/gal and can/will be back at those prices sooner or later. We've been happy with the wife's 16 Jetta and it's 40+ mpg on the highway even at 6000ft.

I think GM and Ford are seeing that hybrid and gasoline-electric technologies are going to make gas mileage much less of a factor in five years than it is currently with pure gasoline and diesel drivetrains. GM is already selling mild hybrid technology in their full-size pick-ups. (Mild hybrids started as sedans, which mostly failed because the gains were unimpressive on already efficient vehicles. On hulking pick-ups and SUVs it's more interesting.) And then there's the all-electric factor, which actually works better in a larger vehicle (more space and weight budget to hide batteries). GM and Ford have never struck me as the brightest bulbs in the box, but this time I can actually see their side of it. Invest where the greatest total margin dollars are.

 

[KEW]

This, I think it's short sighted of Ford to axe the majority of their cars. It wasn't that long ago gas with over $4/gal and can/will be back at those prices sooner or later. We've been happy with the wife's 16 Jetta and it's 40+ mpg on the highway even at 6000ft.

IMHO, it depends how quickly Ford is ready to move to electric (and I guess hybrids are not obsolete yet).
If they come out with Escape/Edge/Explorer/Expedition in forms that break 40mpg to 25mpg (for various size of SUV) before the cost of fuel gets back above $3/gal., I don't think there will be many looking at their decision with regret!

 

[KEW]

I think GM and Ford are seeing that hybrid and gasoline-electric technologies are going to make gas mileage much less of a factor in five years than it is currently with pure and diesel drivetrains. GM is already selling mild hybrid technology in their full-size pick-ups. (Mild hybrids started as sedans, which mostly failed because the gains were unimpressive on already efficient vehicles. On hulking pick-ups and SUVs it's more interesting.) And then there's the all-electric factor, which actually works better in a larger vehicle (more space and weight budget to hide batteries). GM and Ford have never struck me as the brightest bulbs in the box, but this time I can actually see their side of it. Invest where the greatest total margin dollars are.

I'm not sure proper statistics are available yet, but the all electric vehicle should absolutely dominate for reliability as compared to the gas engine!
For me, the Hyundai Kona which is now entering the US market (or very soon) is the future. A small SUV with a range of 258 miles eliminates "range anxiety" which is the big drawback of the Leaf and all electric Focus. I think these are going for around $30-35K after the tax credit, which is still a little steep, but within 10 years, I think the number of all electric vehicles being sold will exceed the number of hybrids or the number of gas SUV's.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/17/18144959/hyundai-kona-ev-electric-suv-range-price

 

[panteragstk]

I'm not sure proper statistics are available yet, but the all electric vehicle should absolutely dominate for reliability as compared to the gas engine!
For me, the Hyundai Kona which is now entering the US market (or very soon) is the future. A small SUV with a range of 258 miles eliminates "range anxiety" which is the big drawback of the Leaf and all electric Focus. I think these are going for around $30-35K after the tax credit, which is still a little steep, but within 10 years, I think the number of all electric vehicles being sold will exceed the number of hybrids or the number of gas SUV's.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/17/18144959/hyundai-kona-ev-electric-suv-range-price

When it comes to electrics it's all about the range. People that live in areas that only have one gas station aren't likely to buy electrics until the fast charging stations are found in more places. Then it'll be very interesting to see if people lean toward the all electric. Co-worker got a tesla and says it's the only thing about the vehicle he does't like. Nowhere to charge it.

The companies also need to agree on a charging standard. Proprietary chargers will make sure they don't get market penetration. We don't want this situation with cars...