"considering first diy" -or- "subs in the oven"

[ryanosaur]

I've looked... I've read... I've pondered... scratched my @$$ a few times... I think I wanna dive in...
But don't know for certain how to start exactly.

As I understand it, starting with a sub should be easier than starting with a speaker design. And this would dovetail nicely with my goal of replacing the dinky HTIB 10" sub in my 8000'3 room.

Goal: other than the above is at least 18hz extension suitable for beginning to pressurize that volume... a second and third could follow. HT and music mix... entertaining is more the focus (opposed to my private system being built around Philharmonics and Outlaw X-13s in a much smaller room).

So my first super-noob question is about resources: I've checked Parts Express and Madisound (and css and a few other sites)... and I've seen Parts express has an extensive resource page for helping people like me out.
But what else do I need to dig in to to help me make this a success? The Cookbook? What about software?

Then, so I may learn and design at same time: what are the best drivers to consider for the task at hand? Are the dayton ultimax good for this, or do I need to look at peerless? Also interested in my own rythmik build, possibly.

Beyond that, I am considering a passive design over active, but would easily be swayed by good reasoning, and if I understand, I need to use rythmik's amps if I go that direction.

Eager to learn more, confused by what I've found so far. I think that sums it up nicely.

Thanks to all!

Best,
R

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hey man, how low, er much do you want to spend?
If I were gonna diy another sub, this is where I’d go.
https://stereointegrity.com/product/hst15-15-subwoofer/
http://www.speakerpower.net/
https://www.subwoofer-builder.com/sonosub.htm
https://www.subwoofer-builder.com/WinISD.htm
(I think tlsguy uses bassbox pro)
https://www.google.com/search?q=sonosub+plans&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
@tlsguy has some great plans using some day on drivers which would be a lot cheaper. I just don’t love Dayton is all.

 

[ryanosaur]

Hey man, how low, er much do you want to spend?
If I were gonna diy another sub, this is where I’d go.
https://stereointegrity.com/product/hst15-15-subwoofer/
http://www.speakerpower.net/
https://www.subwoofer-builder.com/sonosub.htm
https://www.subwoofer-builder.com/WinISD.htm
(I think tlsguy uses bassbox pro)
https://www.google.com/search?q=sonosub+plans&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
@tlsguy has some great plans using some day on drivers which would be a lot cheaper. I just don’t love Dayton is all.

I think there’s a balance point in the question about how much... if a rythmik build cost as much as that sub from rythmik, well thats too much. Seriously, $800-$1000-ish seems reasonable. But that’s where my inexperience comes in. When I look at the 15” peerless on PE, that and an amp alone will eat that budget, though if it performed better than a pb4000, that’s a win.
I’ll check out those links when I get to my desktop. Thanks!!!

 

[Steve81]

This is one of TLSGuy's models for an 18" vented sub based on the Dayton 18" HO driver. That plus something like an iNuke 3000 would run ~$600 together, leaving a few bucks over for materials. I'd expect it to compare well with the PB4000 just running off a single channel of the iNuke (900W into 4 ohms).

 

[lovinthehd]

The economy on a diy sub is partly thru choosing your amplification for multiple subs up front (well, that and your "free" time ). You can also build in some WAF with a diy box by making it into a more decorative piece/end table than most subs. Might also check out some of the plans available at billfitzmaurice.info and avsforum.com's diy section too in addition to those mentioned.

ps data-bass.com is also a very good resource

 

[Swerd]

As I understand it, starting with a sub should be easier than starting with a speaker design. And this would dovetail nicely with my goal of replacing the dinky HTIB 10" sub in my 8000'3 room.

Yes. The design process for a sub is easier. Many sub drivers come with cabinet dimensions already worked out.

Instead of the Loudspeaker Cookbook, I strongly suggest you get a copy of Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden. Read the first 3 or 4 chapters and you'll understand how to properly design sealed or ported bass cabinets. Importantly, it also tells you how to avoid some common mistakes made by eager noobs.

Building a sub requires that you know how to build a box out of MDF or plywood where all the parts fit together square & proper. Do you have any wood working experience? Do you have suitable tools? It's easy for an enthusiastic noob to get in over his head.

Personally, I would wait until you have your Phil 3 speakers and can actually hear & experience what bass response they have in your home. They really can produce bass down to 25 Hz, and depending on your room, they can provide bass lower than that at useful volumes. How much do you really want to spend to get bass roughly 5 Hz lower than that?

Edit: The plans Steve81 posted would be a good way to build. TLS Guy knows how to design a cabinet for a good sounding, highly damped, low Q, bass response.

 

[MrBoat]

The other problem is something known as "subitus." I started with one 12" ultimax, and ended up 5. Two different pairs and a single, ranging from 8-12". Also have two car sub drivers (from the past),and a newer CSS SDX12 XBL2 driver under my bed. The latter of which, I cannot commit to until I get another, now that I am hooked on duals. The CSS driver was around $400. I don't know what I was thinking I was going to do with 'it' at the time, unless I have become a driver hoarder. That's right, sub drivers are not the only speaker drivers I own. I have wide band drivers, tweeters, hardware galore, flitches and rolls of exotic/domestic veneers and enough plywood/mdf sheets and drops to build just about any design that would fit in here. Also have spare maintenance parts for the speakers I have built/own. I could essentially rebuild just about everything I own at least once.

I can't blame it on speakers. I have always DIY'd just about everything I like, which is where the jump start with the tools and a lot of the supplies stemmed from, which made speaker building just another thing. The idea was, to "use up" some of the things I had collected over the years, without adding too much to it. As it turns out, using it up, just makes room for more somehow.

 

[ryanosaur]

I have several of the books coming. On the slow truck from Ohio, so probably after the holiday.

Re: TLSGuy's design: very intriguing... as I learn a little bit more about the meanings of all those number things , and more importantly, how they interact within the system of building a sub, it will make more sense to me.

If I were gonna diy another sub, this is where I’d go.

Cool links, thanks for sharing.

Any software that runs on Mac?

This DIY project will be for a different room, @Swerd. I am using 2 Outlaw X-13s in there, but will likely crossover as low as I can... 50 I think on my AVR. Wish I could defeat that somehow. I'll get to start experimenting in earnest when my BMRs arrive. Oh, and the subs were indulgent, but I really wanted that 16hz for pipe organ.

Building a sub requires that you know how to build a box out of MDF or plywood where all the parts fit together square & proper. Do you have any wood working experience? Do you have suitable tools?

I have rudimentary woodworking skills. Access to a table saw, drill press, and a router. Will need to make or buy a router table, or just use jigs. Also will need a jigsaw, and appropriate clamps. (My landlord is a contractor and fancies himself a cabinet maker... his workshop is about 100yds from my front door. Oh yeah, and he built the house I'm in, too.

In the grand scheme of things, My goal might be to do all the speakers for the greatroom... or at least the subs and front 3. Hell, maybe this is the niche i'm looking for and I can retire from chef-ing for Speaker building. I'll get back to you all when the first cabinet doesn't collapse like a house of cards.

 

[lovinthehd]

Curious, what would you use both a router and jig saw for? I've never used a jig saw on mine....

These are great for the sub/speaker builder if you have a plunge router

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Curious, what would you use both a router and jig saw for? I've never used a jig saw on mine....

These are great for the sub/speaker builder if you have a plunge router

Jigsaw is commonly suggested for initial cuts of panels. As an alternative to a panel saw, table saw, etc.

 

[ryanosaur]

Curious, what would you use both a router and jig saw for? I've never used a jig saw on mine....

These are great for the sub/speaker builder if you have a plunge router

I figured a hand held jigsaw would be easiest for cutting out the holes... for driver, ports, plate amp. Router for joints... rabbet, dado.

You use that plunge router for cutting out the hole? Learn something new! Don't think he has one though... might be a worthwhile investment. Thanks Lovin!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I've DIYed all of my subwoofers and I'm a huge fan of doing so. You don't necessarily save money, but its a lot of fun and a great learning experience.

One of the nice things about DIY subs is that if you are a total Bass Head and you want the most output for the least money, there is no denying that large and low tuned ported boxes provide the best value. There are very few commercial subwoofers that are built that way. JTR being one of the exceptions.

The biggest issue with DIYing ported subwoofers is that they are trickier to build and design. First, most people undersize the ports and end up with chuffing and compression of the ports. Second, they mis-design the ports. You often see low profile high aspect ratio slot ports with hard bends. These are bad port designs. Part of what causes the chuffing and compression is depending on the smallest dimension, so there is a minimum smallest dimension that must be maintained. This dimension depends on the subs output, there is no rules here, just guidelines (and it's really poorly understood with a lot of misinformation on forums).

That doesn't mean you can't make a ported sub, like I said, they are the type that DIY gives the most value around. Just that, for a first time effort, you might want to build a sealed box subwoofer. More buffer against errors. In my early DIY days, I threw away quite a few subwoofers because of badly designed ports. I still have some that I co-designed with a very famous speaker designer and PhD acoustical physicist. The final product used a bunch of 2" ports, which in their quantity, should have been sufficient to avoid chuffing until very high output. That wasn't the case, why? Because basic modeling of chuffing is wrong.

If you want to go the ported road, I suggest either building a proven design or sharing your plans for feedback.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I figured a hand held jigsaw would be easiest for cutting out the holes... for driver, ports, plate amp. Router for joints... rabbet, dado.

You use that plunge router for cutting out the hole? Learn something new! Don't think he has one though... might be a worthwhile investment. Thanks Lovin!

Routers make much nicer holes! The only time you may not go that route is if you are trying to cut really thick material.

If it fits within your budget, I suggest using plywood. Good high quality void free plywood is stiffer and lighter than MDF. That is actually better for subwoofers, plus...you will be happier to work with it. My last subwoofer is an 18" ported job and it's huge. It's so heavy I had to get @shadyJ to come over and help me move it into final place. I hate heavy subwoofers! James also told me I'm no longer allowed to build subwoofers I can't lift myself.

 

[Swerd]

I have rudimentary woodworking skills. Access to a table saw, drill press, and a router. Will need to make or buy a router table, or just use jigs. Also will need a jigsaw, and appropriate clamps. (My landlord is a contractor and fancies himself a cabinet maker... his workshop is about 100yds from my front door. Oh yeah, and he built the house I'm in, too.

A plunge router will be useful. Borrowing is better than buying.

Cutting circles requires a jig like the Jasper jig linked by lovinthehd above. If your landlord is handy enough, he'll know how to make a circle cutting jig from scrap wood.

For router bits, get a standard ½" straight bit, and a ¼" spiral upcut bit (for cutting out circles). Make sure the router you borrow can handle ½" shank bits. Buy bits with tungsten carbide cutting edges, made by a well known brand, such as Freud, Amana, Whiteside, MLCS, or others I can't remember. These types of bits aren't expensive. The cheap bit brands aren't worth buying, use them once and throw them out.

You probably don't need a router table, and no jig saw I know can cut ¾" thick MDF or plywood sheet goods. Those flexible blades bend too much as you make the cut.

Here's a hint: ¾" (now 18 or 19 mm) thick MDF or plywood is sold as roughly 4×8 foot sheets. Work out your plans for building a cabinet so you have a 'cut list' of all the wood pieces needed. Home Depot, Lowes, or any decent lumber supply store, all have panel saws that can hold a 4×8 sheet. Get them to cut the 4×8 sheet into the size pieces you need before you bring it all home. Just to be on the safe side, get them cut an inch larger on each dimension. Later, you can trim them to exact size. However, I have had enough luck at Home Depot getting them cut to size. I used them without further trimming.

 

[Swerd]

In my early DIY days, I threw away quite a few subwoofers because of badly designed ports. I still have some that I co-designed with a very famous speaker designer and PhD acoustical physicist.

Those cabinets can be made into excellent earthquake-proof dog houses.

 

[ryanosaur]

Home Depot, Lowes, or any decent lumber supply store, all have panel saws that can hold a 4×8 sheet

Ha. They hate me!
My lowes doesn't have a crosscut saw for handling timber... and I was trying to get them to do a 4x4. Nope. But Home Depot and Friedmans are better for some of that.

 

[lovinthehd]

I figured a hand held jigsaw would be easiest for cutting out the holes... for driver, ports, plate amp. Router for joints... rabbet, dado.

You use that plunge router for cutting out the hole? Learn something new! Don't think he has one though... might be a worthwhile investment. Thanks Lovin!

Yes, I use a plunge router and Jasper circle jig for baffle cutouts, but I don't use plate amps. I use these Speakon terminals and I've used both a spade bit and a forstner bit with my hand drill for the hole.

 

[ryanosaur]

Since @Matthew J Poes brought it up, and this is very early in the conversation... materials:
MDF, i've seen some reference to avoiding what they sell at Lowes and Home Depot. What should I be looking for if I go that route?
Plywood... void free. I've seen some people mention using Birch...
What are the overall best options, please, and what are their drawbacks?

 

[Swerd]

Ha. They hate me!
My lowes doesn't have a crosscut saw for handling timber... and I was trying to get them to do a 4x4. Nope. But Home Depot and Friedmans are better for some of that.

Don't go on a weekend when they're busy. I've had good luck on weekdays when the regular employees are there.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Those cabinets can be made into excellent earthquake-proof dog houses.

Hah! I didn't have a dog at the time.

I built one once that was just a horrible waste of time and wood. I was so upset when it didn't work out. It was designed to be a 3rd order design using a damped port. The enclosure was around 4 cubic feet internal after removing the space the bracing took up. Bracing was intense. I created bracing that was just way over the top, all cut out with a router. Intricate shapes made it a huge pain, but it looked cool. The port was tuned to 20hz and was 12" by 3" with two right angle bends. The front baffle was 3" thick and the walls were all 1.5" thick. It was so heavy I couldn't move it by myself and never bothered to paint it because I couldn't get it outside once it was assembled.

I thought this would all be fine, especially since the port was completely filled with 30ppi reticulated foam. The driver was an experimental custom designed TC Sounds driver built off the TC-3000 frame with the then-new LMS motor. It had a titanium cone and 37mm of one-way xmax. That's a lot of xmax! Without foam the port was very noisy at modest volume (and I mean modest, it wasn't that loud when the port became audible. Once lined with foam the response changed to 3rd order, as expected, but once you hit the same SPL, it was just as noisy. So here I had this box that made a ton of noise, was useless, and was unfixable. The most I could have done was blocked off the port, but that seemed silly. So I threw it out, and man the garbage men were pissed.