The death of the sedan?

[Steve81]

I'm not suggesting that the CR-V's Cd is improved relative to the Mazda 3, but as a general progression in its product line / ancestors in the SUV market (though one should note the Cd listed on automobile-catalog is only their estimate). Suffice it to say, there was a lot of room for improvement from stuff like this:

 

[TLS Guy]

My first BMW was an '88 535i with limited slip differential. When I put 4 Nokian Hakkapillitta 2's on, there was no stopping that car from moving through any snow or slippery condition! And I long lost count of how many "all wheel drive" vehicles I went around, all stuck trying to go up the steep hill near my home. Even my '04 Pontiac GTO (also rear wheel drive with LSD) was great even though I'd bought the BMW as a winter beater to keep the GTO parked.

All wheel drive comes in different forms, and the most common ones are no better than front wheel drive. Especially true when no one bothers to switch to true snow tires on all 4 corners.

OK there is miss understanding of four wheel drive and and all wheel drive.

Four wheel drive has been around since just prior to WWII. The Willys Jeep like my 71 year old CJ 2A shown below was the first US vehicle to have it.

This basically set the design for four wheel drive. There is a gear box and then a transfer case, with drive shafts going to front and rear. There is a differential for the front wheels and one for the rears. But, and this is the important point: - THERE IS NO DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THE FRONT AND REAR WHEELS. This means that four wheel drive should only be employed on a surface like mud or snow where there can be slip of the wheels. Otherwise stress build up in the drive. My neighbor was unaware of this and was using his ATV routinely in four wheel drive, and recently came over to me to say he started backing up his hill and there was a crack and his ATV would not move. I went over and looked underneath and the rear diff was split wide open with the cogs, bearings and oil on the pavement. Re education commenced.

Now a four wheel vehicle is actually more dangerous on ice when four wheel is engaged. They should never be driven above 40 mph in four wheel drive under any circumstances. This applies to all trucks and large SUVS like Suburbans.

In 1967 a small UK sports car company Jensen invented a transfer box with a a differential between the front and rear drive shafts. This was the Jensen Interceptor.

1967 Jensen Interceptor

This was licensed to Land Rover and in 1970 the world's first SUV with All wheel drive appeared.

The 1970 Range Rover. My father bought one right away.

The development of the all wheel dive differential system was a game changer. This allowed the vehicles to drive on all four wheels simultaneously without problems. It greatly enhances road handling and safety on ice and wet roads. Up in the North country I can certainly attest to that.

Now the Range Rover had a lock that could be engaged to lock all four wheels in heavy snow or deep mud.

These days the transmission computer instantly spots a spinning wheel and stops it. I'm totally amazed at what a steep icy hill my Equinox can climb without difficulty.
Actually it is more effective than the standard four wheel drive on my old Suburban.

All Subarus use this system. It is used on all SUVs now, or at least is an option, SUVs like the Honda CRV, Chevy Equinox, Chevy Traverse, Ford Escape and many, many others.

For gas conservation newer models have a switch that puts them in standard front wheel drive when travelling on dry roads, as a gas saving measure. So you engage all wheel drive on wet, icy and snow covered roads.

Lastly a word about snow tires. Again this is not understood. Snow tires do increase traction in snow significantly. Unfortunately they reduce traction on ice and compacted snow which actually makes them more dangerous than a good all weather radial tire designed for the North Land.

When I arrived in Manitoba and in my early years in ND, I used studded snow tires in the winter. As tire technology improved I switched to using high quality all weather radials. In this part of the world tire selection is vital. American made tires are generally best up here and European tires tend to be a disaster. But I don't stint on tires. Having a good relationship with an experienced local tire dealer is I find very important. In the winter here tires are not created equal by a long shot.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm not suggesting that the CR-V's Cd is improved relative to the Mazda 3, but as a general progression in its product line / ancestors in the SUV market (though one should note the Cd listed on automobile-catalog is only their estimate). Suffice it to say, there was a lot of room for improvement from stuff like this:
View attachment 27315

fair enough. I do agree that even today many cars manufactures could do a better job at producing more efficient vehicles and FFS we really need much better battery tech to both improve energy density and reduce the price of it.
Like this for example:
https://tiresandparts.net/news/parts/honda-makes-breakthrough-in-new-battery-technology/
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/281982-fluoride-based-battery-chemistry-could-leapfrog-replace-lithium-ion

 

[KEW]

Sorry, but numbers don't stack up here per your theory. Drag Coefficient of 2007 Mazda 3 is 0.31 while 2017 CR-V is 0.33 which is actually (and predictably) worse.

For the drag coefficient of the comparatively tall CRV to only be 0.02 higher than the Mazda 3 is pretty amazing to me. I suspect one thing they must have done is cover the underside of the car with "skid-plates" to avoid all of the turbulence around the hardware.

 

[Steve81]

fair enough. I do agree that even today many cars manufactures could do a better job at producing more efficient vehicles and FFS we really need much better battery tech to both improve energy density and reduce the price of it.
Like this for example:
https://tiresandparts.net/news/parts/honda-makes-breakthrough-in-new-battery-technology/
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/281982-fluoride-based-battery-chemistry-could-leapfrog-replace-lithium-ion

Personally I'd like to see more serial hybrids like the Volt. It makes a lot of sense to me to keep the engine as a generator, such that it only needs to operate in its most efficient range, and even then only when needed to recharge the battery. More to the point, the engine doesn't have to run on gasoline; it could be a diesel engine running on biofuel.

 

[Steve81]

For the drag coefficient of the comparatively tall CRV to only be 0.02 higher than the Mazda 3 is pretty amazing to me. I suspect one thing they must have done is cover the underside of the car with "skid-plates" to avoid all of the turbulence around the hardware.

Sure beats the Hummer H2 at 0.57, not to mention that monstrosity's 3+ ton curb weight....

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Personally I'd like to see more serial hybrids like the Volt. It makes a lot of sense to me to keep the engine as a generator, such that it only needs to operate in its most efficient range, and even then only when needed to recharge the battery. More to the point, the engine doesn't have to run on gasoline; it could be a diesel engine running on biofuel.

Eliminating the transmission seems like a good way to improves significantly by reducing power loss.
Less spinning parts=better, but Volt is a stop gap due to the reasons I've mentioned above - mostly battery capacity and their price. Li-Ion is still relatively very expensive for the total quantity required for sufficient range. I vaguely remember that more than $30k out of top-tier Tesla S is just the cost of batteries.

 

[Steve81]

Less spinning parts=better, but Volt is a stop gap due to the reasons I've mentioned above - mostly battery capacity and their price. Li-Ion is still relatively very expensive for the total quantity required for sufficient range. I vaguely remember that more than $30k out of top-tier Tesla S is just the cost of batteries.

The Volt /serial hybrid may be a stopgap to pure electric, but its liable to be one that lasts a while. The issues of battery cost / capacity are much bigger when you need 200+ miles of electric range than the Volt's 40 (and it could certainly be less than that while still reaping most of the benefits of a serial hybrid system). The Volt is also able to sidestep the issue of time needed to recharge a large battery pack, which is another big barrier at the moment.

 

[lovinthehd]

Trying to think of the last sedan I owned....that goes back to early 90s? Mostly SUVs, a sportscar and a van....

 

[2channel lover]

I recently have read about GM closing plants. They are primarily getting rid of several sedans that are not as profitable as their trucks and SUV's.
Then, today, I was reading that Ford is getting rid of everything on the sedan side of a the crossover!

Is this just that Ford and GM are known as better at trucks, or is it a global (or national?) trend towards SUV/Trucks?

IDK about global...we spent some time in Europe this past summer (mostly Paris) and did not see one pickup, and very few SUVs. You would see the occasional luxury euro car, BMW/Audi/Mercedes, but the Pugeot and Renault were mostly small cars.

SUVs are still growing here, but I guess Ford and GM is caving in on the sedan front.

I've owned mini vans, and several SUVs, but I'm an empty nester now more or less, down sized home, no real need for an SUV day in day out. I like a decent handling car now, drive a sedan, and even looking to drop 2 doors on my next car.

 

[KEW]

I was in Costa Rica recently and it seemed that the Toyota Yaris was the "car of the people" there.
Makes sense, sturdy enough to survive the ubiquitous potholes on the side streets and good gas mileage.
The gas mileage difference is a much more important in most other countries since it is usually quite a bit more expensive than here.

 

[2channel lover]

I was in Costa Rica recently and it seemed that the Toyota Yaris was the "car of the people" there.
Makes sense, sturdy enough to survive the ubiquitous potholes on the side streets and good gas mileage.
The gas mileage difference is a much more important in most other countries since it is usually quite a bit more expensive than here.

Yep...we're spoiled on gas costs, and a lot of us don't realize it....when we were there...doing the math just south of $7 a gal iirc and no 87 grade...A lot of motorized 2 wheel vehicles of various type, smartcars, those small 4 dr hatchback type cars...in fact the only American made car we saw on the road in Paris was the Ford Focus..actually saw a Ford dealership.

Atlhough it's US...on St. Croix...the 4x4 Jeep Cherokee is a prime vehicle...which makes sense....roads can be bad, and hilly terrain. Not sure I'd want a nice car living there.

 

[KEW]

Yep...we're spoiled on gas costs, and a lot of us don't realize it....when we were there...doing the math just south of $7 a gal iirc and no 87 grade...A lot of motorized 2 wheel vehicles of various type, smartcars, those small 4 dr hatchback type cars...in fact the only American made car we saw on the road in Paris was the Ford Focus..actually saw a Ford dealership.

Atlhough it's US...on St. Croix...the 4x4 Jeep Cherokee is a prime vehicle...which makes sense....roads can be bad, and hilly terrain. Not sure I'd want a nice car living there.

That' the truth and reminds me of an anecdote!: One place I drove in Costa Rica was following another Yaris (my car rental as well). These were dirt roads and there were two places we had to ford streams (which gets dicey depending on how much rain has fallen, how deep the water is and where the rocks are sitting that day). I watched as the Yaris in front of me crossed the stream and had the rear panel of his car pulled 2/3rds of the way off. We stopped and evaluated it (walking across the steam). He had used too much gas (the way you should if you are driving across mud and trying to maintain momentum) which had the unfortunate consequence of compressing his suspension a couple of inches as he hit the slope on the other side of the stream and he caught a rock at the edge of the stream!
My Yaris had 1" larger wheels, I knew after watching him to not go fast (traction is not a problem, the creek bed was essentially gravel - there is some crunching and shifting, but you would never get stuck), and we removed a couple of rocks that looked imposing, so no problems. But it is one of those situations where a little attention to details can make big differences. I was surprised at how well his rear panel tucked back into the body and we figured he could get it to pass car rental inspection after tacking the panel down with some epoxy or a couple of screws.
That is kind of arguing for an SUV, lol! There were a few "jeeps" like the tiny Suzuki that used to be sold here, but sedans were definitely the more common choice.

 

[highfigh]

The way people drive in Milwaukee, I would rather be in a tank than a car. I use a white Astro cargo van for work and people try to blindly merge into me all the time and when I drove an extended cab/short bed Silverado, they did the same. Before the Silverado, I drove a LeSabre and they did the same. In the '80s, I drove an RX-7 and I don't know how I didn't end up under a truck or mashed into a guard rail.

With all of the talk about fuel efficiency, it's disappointing that most cars and trucks aren't doing much better than they did 20 years ago, hybrids aside. I saw that Ford has a pickup that cracked the 30MPG number but I can't bring myself to buy a Ford- they seem to have a fascination with recalls involving potential for fire. Been doing that for decades.

 

[highfigh]

Yep...we're spoiled on gas costs, and a lot of us don't realize it....when we were there...doing the math just south of $7 a gal iirc and no 87 grade...A lot of motorized 2 wheel vehicles of various type, smartcars, those small 4 dr hatchback type cars...in fact the only American made car we saw on the road in Paris was the Ford Focus..actually saw a Ford dealership.

Atlhough it's US...on St. Croix...the 4x4 Jeep Cherokee is a prime vehicle...which makes sense....roads can be bad, and hilly terrain. Not sure I'd want a nice car living there.

We have a grocery chain that has an arrangement with BP for discounts, based on grocery purchases. We get points/dollar and it allows us to enter a code into the pump's keypad, which then asks if we want to use whatever the discount may be. I got a 100 point card in the mail and with my recent purchases, my price was twenty cents less than posted, which means I paid $1.889/gallon yesterday. The station closest to my house had it for $2.059/gallon but unfortunately, our gas has Ethanol in it.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

 

[panteragstk]

As 2018 accord owner, I must say that sedans demise is largely exaggerated. Before I never knew how much fun and yet practical large sedan could be.

It's not exaggerated...for american car companies. For the most part Ford and GM large sedans are boring and not all that appealing to look at. Dodge is one of the only ones that are going to keep making the big sedans simply because who else will put a 700hp motor into a grocery getter? Plenty of non-us examples of this, but the days of your grandma's large sedan are over for the US. Hell, even my 85 yo grandma had a small SUV for her last car. Easier for her to get in and out of. Now that smaller SUVs aren't horrible and get decent mileage (lots of them are based off large sedan platforms BTW) people like that they can have more space and get some efficiency.

I told you this, but my wife's uncle has a new accord and boy do those things look nice. Lots of Japanese and European sedans look very good and have power. Finding that in a US company is all but impossible.

 

[Irvrobinson]

These days the transmission computer instantly spots a spinning wheel and stops it. I'm totally amazed at what a steep icy hill my Equinox can climb without difficulty. Actually it is more effective than the standard four wheel drive on my old Suburban.

What you're describing is a function of the four-wheel anti-lock braking system, which has the ability to apply braking to an individual wheel. In addition to traction control systems, this capability is also used by so-called yaw control features to keep the car from spinning when too much power is applied in corners. Personally, I still prefer having these advantages layered on top of a mechanical limited-slip differential (the latest ones use electronic control of the clutches) for better corner exits, but that's more of a factor for sport sedans and sports cars than SUVs.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

It's not exaggerated...for american car companies. For the most part Ford and GM large sedans are boring and not all that appealing to look at. Dodge is one of the only ones that are going to keep making the big sedans simply because who else will put a 700hp motor into a grocery getter? Plenty of non-us examples of this, but the days of your grandma's large sedan are over for the US. Hell, even my 85 yo grandma had a small SUV for her last car. Easier for her to get in and out of. Now that smaller SUVs aren't horrible and get decent mileage (lots of them are based off large sedan platforms BTW) people like that they can have more space and get some efficiency.

I told you this, but my wife's uncle has a new accord and boy do those things look nice. Lots of Japanese and European sedans look very good and have power. Finding that in a US company is all but impossible.

If you expect me to argue with on quality or appeal of American companies designed sedans, you'd have to wait quite a bit.
That said I rented Chevy Malibu plenty of times and didn't hate it at all. Even Cruz, while very slow to pick up speed, does deliver nice fuel mileage.
One of the sedans GM builds is Cadillac CTX is a nice enough car but suffers from terrible reliability (according to CR). They "just" need to improve quality and the reliability of the car and aim to compete vs japanize Acuras and Lexus. Right now they are delusional trying to position their car vs top-end German cars. I mean at the rate Koreans cars are improving each year, I could easily see these match their Japanise competition unfortunately way before American brands get there. Case in point: Genesis (ie Hyndai) G80 and Kia Stinger GT
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/genesis/g80/2019/overview
https://www.consumerreports.org/sedans/2018-kia-stinger-review-striving-to-be-sporty/

 

[panteragstk]

If you expect me to argue with on quality or appeal of American companies designed sedans, you'd have to wait quite a bit.
That said I rented Chevy Malibu plenty of times and didn't hate it at all. Even Cruz, while very slow to pick up speed, does deliver nice fuel mileage.
One of the sedans GM builds is Cadillac CTX is a nice enough car but suffers from terrible reliability (according to CR). They "just" need to improve quality and the reliability of the car and aim to compete vs japanize Acuras and Lexus. Right now they are delusional trying to position their car vs top-end German cars. I mean in rate Koreans cars are improving each year, I could easily see these match their Japanise competition unfortunately before American brands get there.

They put me in a Buick Lacrosse and while I didn't hate it, the interior was nice, but it was just...boring. Not a lot of get up and go. I do like GM cars from a drive train standpoint, but aesthetics have gone down hill from the past IMHO. The Caddies are OK, but they cost too much now.