In-ceiling speaker installation - home builder "prewired" with boxes

[strantheman]

Hi all - thanks for your help.

My home is prewired for a 7.1 system. There are 7 plates in my ceiling in my great room. I had assumed that I would unscrew them and find wire puttied or stapled to a stud. Instead I found full boxes nailed to the stud. This is basically what it looks like with the wings on the sides, except mine is gray and has holes at the top and bottom where the plate was screwed in.

Here's the technique I'm planning to do to remove these:

I just want to make sure I'm not going about this all wrong before I cut a bigger hole (7 of them) in my ceiling.

nic

 

[-Jim-]

Hi strantheman, and welcome to the forum.

You said "This is basically what it looks like with the wings on the sides, except mine is gray and has holes at the top and bottom where the plate was screwed in."

My concern is if your boxes are screwed in, rather than nailed, this method won't work for you. You'd probably have to grind off, or saw off, the screw head, remove the box, and then remove the rest of the screw. If yours are nailed, this method would suffice but I'd used a pry bar instead of a screwdriver; or at least an old screwdriver I didn't care about bending.

Another concern I have you said "My home is prewired for a 7.1 system. There are 7 plates in my ceiling in my great room." I certainly hope you aren't thinking you will get the best sound with all your speakers in the ceiling. A Dolby or DTS 7.1 system has the best sound with the speakers at (or near) ear level. In ceiling speakers are typically used for Atmos or other immersive sound enhancement => not the main program.

You may want to rethink your plan before doing anything. Post a photo or sketch of the area, along with your equipment list, and folks here will offer some great ideas and suggestions.

 

[strantheman]

Thanks for the reply!

It is definitely nailed in. I found this video which described my problem precisely.

I used the stencil included with my speaker, and starting the edge of the circle at the stud, drew a circle and cut out the sheetrock. I was then able to get to the box and pry it out. Looks like I'm going to have to repeat that arduous process 6 more times. I emailed the electrician who was contracted for our prewire for my house, waiting to find out why they put boxes. The home was built in 2017 and I just can't imagine he thought we wanted "satellite" speakers sticking out of the ceiling.

RE the 7.1 topic. I think you're right - it would be a good idea to post my overall plan as a new topic to get some feedback. But the summary is that I have 7 in the ceiling, 1 in the wall (for the sub). I have no intent on putting in-wall speakers on the wall where my TV is. We're opting for aesthetics over top sound quality. I'm planning to get this in-ceiling speaker which is LCR and aims down at the listening position. I got the diagram from Crutchfield.

Crutchfield item 760CLCR

 

[everettT]

Thanks for the reply!

It is definitely nailed in. I found this video which described my problem precisely.

I used the stencil included with my speaker, and starting the edge of the circle at the stud, drew a circle and cut out the sheetrock. I was then able to get to the box and pry it out. Looks like I'm going to have to repeat that arduous process 6 more times. I emailed the electrician who was contracted for our prewire for my house, waiting to find out why they put boxes. The home was built in 2017 and I just can't imagine he thought we wanted "satellite" speakers sticking out of the ceiling.

RE the 7.1 topic. I think you're right - it would be a good idea to post my overall plan as a new topic to get some feedback. But the summary is that I have 7 in the ceiling, 1 in the wall (for the sub). I have no intent on putting in-wall speakers on the wall where my TV is. We're opting for aesthetics over top sound quality. I'm planning to get this in-ceiling speaker which is LCR and aims down at the listening position. I got the diagram from Crutchfield.

Crutchfield item 760CLCR

View attachment 27019



View attachment 27018

That certainly helps, but isnt optimal. I'd stick with 5.1 and save the additional 2 channels to put towards a better sub.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yes, welcome to AH.

Hope you will like the audio(dialogue) coming from the ceiling while watching a video. Wishing the best outcome.

 

[-Jim-]

Glad to see you are getting progress on your install. Keep us posted on how it sounds when finished.

 

[2channel lover]

Thanks for the reply!

It is definitely nailed in. I found this video which described my problem precisely.

I used the stencil included with my speaker, and starting the edge of the circle at the stud, drew a circle and cut out the sheetrock. I was then able to get to the box and pry it out. Looks like I'm going to have to repeat that arduous process 6 more times. I emailed the electrician who was contracted for our prewire for my house, waiting to find out why they put boxes. The home was built in 2017 and I just can't imagine he thought we wanted "satellite" speakers sticking out of the ceiling.

RE the 7.1 topic. I think you're right - it would be a good idea to post my overall plan as a new topic to get some feedback. But the summary is that I have 7 in the ceiling, 1 in the wall (for the sub). I have no intent on putting in-wall speakers on the wall where my TV is. We're opting for aesthetics over top sound quality. I'm planning to get this in-ceiling speaker which is LCR and aims down at the listening position. I got the diagram from Crutchfield.

Crutchfield item 760CLCR

View attachment 27019



View attachment 27018

We're opting for aesthetics over top sound quality"

Sometimes that's the objective and mentally you've conceded SQ so as long as you achieve the objective it's okay.

My cousin has a 5.1 inceiling surround sound...same deal, wife wanted a clean, uncluttered look in the family room so they sacrificed SQ to get her what she wanted.

Just realize when you make that call, you really can't have it both ways so if your LCR inceiling speakers cannot convert to inwall speakers directly facing the viewers I wouldn't spend a lot of money trying to improve the sound, it's going to fall short of even a moderately priced conventional LCR or a good set of inwall LCR.

 

[strantheman]

This is really good advice. I will hold off on the center channel for the moment. Thanks everyone for replying!

@everettT what exactly do you mean by "saving 2 channels" ?

I currently have prewires for:

• 3 ceiling mounts in the front (lets call them 1,2,3)
• 2 ceiling mounts (surround L and R) (lets call them 4,5)
• 2 ceiling mounts (back surround L and R) (lets call them 6,7)
• 1 in-wall for subwoofer (lets call that 0.1)

I was planning to put in-ceiling speakers in 1,3,4,5,6,7. I was planning to put the LCR angled down in 2. I was planning to put a subwoofer in 0.1.

 

[2channel lover]

This is really good advice. I will hold off on the center channel for the moment. Thanks everyone for replying!

@everettT what exactly do you mean by "saving 2 channels" ?

I currently have prewires for:

• 3 ceiling mounts in the front (lets call them 1,2,3)
• 2 ceiling mounts (surround L and R) (lets call them 4,5)
• 2 ceiling mounts (back surround L and R) (lets call them 6,7)
• 1 in-wall for subwoofer (lets call that 0.1)

View attachment 27104
I was planning to put in-ceiling speakers in 1,3,4,5,6,7. I was planning to put the LCR angled down in 2. I was planning to put a subwoofer in 0.1.

This is just a personal sort of overview opinion...a well designed 7.1 system will sound slightly better than a well designed 5.1 system, but unless you have the ideal space for a 7.1 system, it's not really worth the extra money spent. Secondly, content. The vast majority of movie content is produced in 5.1 mode.

A 5.1 inceiling system is not ideal for SQ but with aesthetics taking priority over SQ you accept that going into the project. Keeping with the mindset of understanding the SQ sacrifice, you're not really going to improve on the 5.1 much in this space...I would leave the 6 & 7 spots alone for now and like another poster said...put those funds into a better sub.

 

[-Jim-]

I agree that going only with 5.1 is probably a better move. My wife hates big speakers and wires (and she married an Electrician who's biggest hobby is Audio ...).

During our recent renovation (which was painful),for the Family Room system (I have 3 HT Systems in our house, and another at the Cabin),we compromised and I used in-walls for the surrounds in a 5.1 setup (even though the Receiver can do 7.1) and very small L & R at ear level. The center is small enough to fit under the TV nicely. Of course the Sub is still external with a wireless remote connection, but it is used like a coffee table most of the time. Perhaps your wife would consider in-wall for the front 3 and in-ceiling for the 2 surrounds with a wireless remote Sub hiding in a corner like an end table?

(My Games Room is 7.2.4 but that's another story...)

 

[strantheman]

@2channel lover i see - yes I had considered sticking with 5.1 simply because I had not really figured out what the 7.1 difference was. What did you mean about my space not being optimal for 7.1?

@-Jim- my room is already prewired for all the ceiling spots and the in-wall areas circled in red in the photo above. So I think front L (1) and front R (3) being in the ceiling, but maybe with the LCR center speaker being in-wall instead of where it would be now at (2) would be a good compromise. I just have no earthly idea what it would take / cost to get a center channel in-wall wired now. I can totally understand that I should have prewired for in-wall speakers for my LCR center speaker at the very least - it makes a lot of sense to not want the dialog coming from above you. I was really hoping people would say the angled down speaker I found would be solid so now I'm not sure.

 

[everettT]

@2channel lover i see - yes I had considered sticking with 5.1 simply because I had not really figured out what the 7.1 difference was. What did you mean about my space not being optimal for 7.1?

@-Jim- my room is already prewired for all the ceiling spots and the in-wall areas circled in red in the photo above. So I think front L (1) and front R (3) being in the ceiling, but maybe with the LCR center speaker being in-wall instead of where it would be now at (2) would be a good compromise. I just have no earthly idea what it would take / cost to get a center channel in-wall wired now. I can totally understand that I should have prewired for in-wall speakers for my LCR center speaker at the very least - it makes a lot of sense to not want the dialog coming from above you. I was really hoping people would say the angled down speaker I found would be solid so now I'm not sure.

That certainly helps, but isnt optimal. I'd stick with 5.1 and save the additional 2 channels to put towards a better sub.

Adding in ceiling rear surrounds gets you almost nothing with regard to the system sound.

 

[2channel lover]

5.1 vs 7.1 diff...side surrounds (SS) in a typical 5.1 system obviously get sound effects in movies...in discrete 5.1 audio, they can get a full range signal. 7.1 adds another layer with the rear surrounds and do much the same as the SS, but they get less content. Our demo was a highend B&W room with 802d3s across the front, and four 805d3s in surround mode...playing a 7.1 movie in both 5.1 and 7.1 modes the latter was better but this room was an ideal setup for 7.1.

Space not ideal...I think someone posted the dolby surround sound layout...that visual is pretty good. In my case and from what I can see, in your case as well...the RS would be too close to the SS....7-10' of space behind the MLP is ideal from what I've been told in the two demos I was able to sit in before I settled on a 5.2.4 myself...mlp only 5' from the back wall.

 

[strantheman]

Thanks for the help.

I see. This is a huge room. Its also open to the kitchen area which is where I took my photo from. I realize its not exactly a home theater room since its so open. I had assumed, however, that my electrician doing the 7.1 surround sound prewire would take all of the optimal measurements into consideration. It does appear, now that I'm opening plates up and cutting into the ceiling that the boxes they installed were positioned more to align with where the studs are instead of possibly where the most ideal position was.

That said, I need to do some measurements. Its a big room.

On the topic of Rear surround:

• Is the question of optimal quality about 7.1 vs 5.1 (keeping the signal in just the SS vs splitting to RS) more about the size of the room, or the fact that my speakers would be in-ceiling?
• What if I am able to get 7' from MLP? In-ceiling still no good?

On the topic of L,C,R or even a LCR as a center speaker:

• What if I only had a center LCR speaker installed in the wall facing the MLP? Would that be pretty good and could I get away with that instead of install 3 speakers there, given that I'm trying to compromise a bit for aesthetics?
• Is there any way for a receiver to send the Center signal back to the TV speakers? HDMI from Roku to Receiver -> some sort of audio input to TV?

 

[2channel lover]

Thanks for the help.

I see. This is a huge room. Its also open to the kitchen area which is where I took my photo from. I realize its not exactly a home theater room since its so open. I had assumed, however, that my electrician doing the 7.1 surround sound prewire would take all of the optimal measurements into consideration. It does appear, now that I'm opening plates up and cutting into the ceiling that the boxes they installed were positioned more to align with where the studs are instead of possibly where the most ideal position was.

That said, I need to do some measurements. Its a big room.

On the topic of Rear surround:

• Is the question of optimal quality about 7.1 vs 5.1 (keeping the signal in just the SS vs splitting to RS) more about the size of the room, or the fact that my speakers would be in-ceiling?
• What if I am able to get 7' from MLP? In-ceiling still no good?

On the topic of L,C,R or even a LCR as a center speaker:

• What if I only had a center LCR speaker installed in the wall facing the MLP? Would that be pretty good and could I get away with that instead of install 3 speakers there, given that I'm trying to compromise a bit for aesthetics?
• Is there any way for a receiver to send the Center signal back to the TV speakers? HDMI from Roku to Receiver -> some sort of audio input to TV?

Okay...If you have the space... but to answer your question...having them inceiling does hurt SQ/performance.

RS...In short, what you are trying to do (enhance a flawed design) I've seen done before several times actually in some basement home theater renovations. From my experience, the ROI is probably not going to be worth the effort. A 7.1 inceiling is not going to be worse, just not appreciably better.

LCR...If I understand you correctly...an inwall CC, and inceiling L & R?

If so, the CC would better, but the getting the L&R phased in correctly would be a challenge...still not ideal. If you can't do all 3 LCR, inwall…I would stick with inceiling and just not worry about it.

 

[-Jim-]

IMHO this all comes down to the trade offs made for SQ. It's well documented that separate decent speakers and subs, correctly positioned in a room, sound best. (That is not only the layout but at what height from the listener's ear.) If separate speakers are deemed too ugly to have, then the urge for SQ will be compromised. If you mandate the speakers to being all in ceiling, with an in-wall sub, I doubt the subsequent sound field will resemble anything the Artist or Director of the source material was trying to supply.

Rewiring now is not without effort and cost, but for Audioholics, a no brainer. But if the all important WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) meter is stuck hard the other way, (as the Borg once said - and I'm dating myself here => resistance is futile!) it's over.

In your place, I'd consider negotiating some compromise (hence the mix I suggested above). Another concept is to buy one of the newer (OMG am I saying this!) Soundbars with a wireless Sub, and forget about the whole in ceiling thing. Then find yourself a room to build a Man Cave with the right configuration after you consult with the Gang here.

(By the way, how high is the center of the TV from the Floor?)