When to know it's time to add external amplification to a Denon 8500?

[Stephen Novosel]

Good evening, I've searched without success for a (very) clear answer to the question "How do I know when to add external amplification" to an existing A/V receiver (that obviously has preouts)?

In my current case, I've set up an 8500 and am running two configs: Atmos (9.2.4) and Auro 3D (13.2) based on content and mood. I have installed separate speakers for each layout: FWs for Atmos; Heights/Top for Auro. Martin Logan Motion 40s = R&L, Motion 50XT = C, and all of the other surrounds/heights/top = Motion SLMs. It's a 4-ohm setup.

This system replaces a Yammy 3040 that ran a 7.2.4 Atmos setup, also with the Martin Logans as described, and was externally amplified using an Emotiva XPA-5 and UPA-200. I really don't recall why I bought the Emotivas. Maybe I ran across an article or spoke to someone who recommended them. That reason is lost in time.

Part of the attraction of the 8500 was to consolidate amplification, get rid of the Emotivas, and run with just the one receiver with its 13 amps. However, when speaking to one of the subwoofer manufacturers today, I was told that although the 8500 should be able to manage my setups, it would be "better" to implement the Emotivas so as to take the "strain" off of the 8500's amps and single processor.

So, with this information in mind, I just came from a film session and frankly the system sounds good as-is, but that earlier conversation got me to wondering if there is an aural milestone or benchmark that experienced audioholics recognize as the indicator for the need to run external amplification. Yes? No? No such milestone?

I am curious to hear how others approach(ed) this question.

I only ever use the 8500 for film playback, listening at volumes between -20 to -10. All speakers are set to "Small" and I'm running two subs where the LCR are crossed over at 80Hz and all others at 120Hz.

 

[Good4it]

When the guy who lives a block away says “it’s not loud enough “.
.

 

[lovinthehd]

To the guy who told you an amp would take strain off a processor....whut?

Sounds like you are satisfied with the audio; if the 8500 drives your speakers to the levels you need without audible issues why worry about it?

There is an article on the subject here https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/connecting-an-external-amp-to-a-receiver

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would just use the 8500 by itself and sell the EMO.

Add 2 x 120mm fans atop the chassis.

But to answer your question of when to add an amp? It’s when you have a pre-pro and you have to use external amps.

 

[Stephen Novosel]

I did go back and review many of the "Why/how to add external amplification . . ." threads (there's quite a few, including the lengthy one on this site from circa 2014 where Gene and Goliath exchanged interesting commentary on the subject) and ultimately discovered that there's a lot of conflicting thoughts offered by many well-intentioned folks and yet I didn't come across anyone using an inexpensive measuring tool that might shed actual usage numbers onto my question. Does such a meter exist?

My theater room (2300 cf) is self-contained, it's a room within a room, isolated from the rest of our house. When its single entrance door closes, one feels cut off from the rest of the world, no one would know films are running in there.

I did speak with both Martin Logan and Denon, and to the extent customer service at both are well-informed enough to be believed, each said I'd have "no problems" using both product lines to achieve my listening goals, although to be fair I didn't ask them about external amplification.

If objectively there's no reason to implement the Emos, then off they'll go to some other good home.

My only hesitation to sell off things is due to a lack of (a stronger) understanding about how a 13 channel 4-ohm setup like mine, set "small" and crossed over per above, impacts available power on board the 8500 during playback at the Denon -10 to -20 levels I listen to. Using a laser measuring device, my MLP does not exceed 106" from the furthermost speaker location (most are far shorter than that).

 

[lovinthehd]

You can use an spl calculator to approximate your power requirements for your use http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html. You could buy a measurement mic and see just what you're experiencing, too. If you have no further interest in measuring your space, then you could possibly get a decent spl meter for less, but a measurement mic can do so much more. Then again I know of no way to particularly look up a clear answer to your query. Expecations can be tough.

Sure, an external amp may help relieve the Denon of some work and possibly increase longevity due to less heat, but sounds like your listening habits are similar to mine altho I only have a 7.4 speaker setup. I use a Denon 4520 (and it's in somewhat a smallish space so I also use cooling fans). I don't use a power amp, altho I used to, but granted my speakers are a bit more efficient but slightly lower impedance than they were when I used the power amp, altho my distances are greater than yours (your furthest being a bit closer than my closest, and those are surrounds), mains are about 15 feet and rear surrounds about 13 feet. Room treatments come into play; you sound like you have a nice quiet room so a lower noise floor helps you out, too.

It's hard to make the call for you, but if you're not hearing anything amiss, what's the point? That itch that you might be missing something, not making your speakers sing, not filling your potential kind of thing sometimes needs to be scratched....and you've already got the amp so why not put it to use and see if it makes a difference?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I disagree strongly with the notion that a receiver is all you need and external amplification offers no benefit. The reality is that most (and I mean MOST) people cannot actually achieve "reference" levels as defined by THX or Dolby (who doesn't have a reference home standard but has clearly laid out a reference cinema standard and testing procedure).

For a system to be able to achieve this standard, each of the LCR speakers must be able to achieve 105dB's of clean output at 1/3 back of the commercial cinema seating. The only equivalent home standard is THX which simply adopted that standard and then indicated it should be at the listening position. Most people sit between 8 and 12 feet from their speakers. In addition, this 105dB is not supposed to be peak, its supposed to be a sustainable output. The official method to field test this is not accurate in the slightest because it doesn't create a distortion threshold. A stepped sine distortion test or a test similar to the CEA-2010 test (but modified to RMS levels) is what should probably be used.

In any case, given the average sensitivity of most speakers is around 89dB at 1w/1M and the average receiver is unlikely to achieve more than 150 watts RMS per channel, the best you can expect to achieve at a 12 foot listening distance is just 100dB's. That is 5dB short of reference. It would require 500 watts to achieve 105dB from that single speaker, which realistically the receiver will never achieve, most external amps can't achieve, and most speakers can't handle. This is why I'm an advocate of high sensitivity speakers. While 105 may not happen, you can also argue that this is a little extreme and that a more peak like test is adequate for most people, which implies that having a good 200-300 watt RMS external amplifier is probably still an advantage as it should provide for about 3dB of extra output.

Keeping with that general idea, the other advantage of external amps is that it frees up some of the power supplies capacity in the receiver to ensure that under high peak demand scenarios where most or all of the speakers are being driven to high levels, the receiver's internal amps can still provide sufficient power to the remaining speakers. Many receivers, even the most monstrous receivers, can often drive a single channel or pair of channels to the amp peak, say 150 watts, just fine. Add in another 5 channels and suddenly its only doing 110 watts. Power the front two speakers with an external 150 watt amp, and you might see 150 watts across all channels again. Yes that is just 1dB difference in this scenario, but if you have the amps, it doesn't hurt, and there are other peak demand considerations. Most external amps can also put out a lot more power over a short duration than can a receiver. It's not uncommon for external amps to be under-rated and receivers to be a bit over-rated. In practice you probably would find more like a 2-3 dB difference.

I actually consider a receiver to always be inadequate to power a system to reference levels as there are very few speakers on the market that are sensitive enough to reach 105dB at the listening position on just 100-150 watts.

 

[lovinthehd]

I disagree strongly with the notion that a receiver is all you need and external amplification offers no benefit. The reality is that most (and I mean MOST) people cannot actually achieve "reference" levels as defined by THX or Dolby (who doesn't have a reference home standard but has clearly laid out a reference cinema standard and testing procedure).

For a system to be able to achieve this standard, each of the LCR speakers must be able to achieve 105dB's of clean output at 1/3 back of the commercial cinema seating. The only equivalent home standard is THX which simply adopted that standard and then indicated it should be at the listening position. Most people sit between 8 and 12 feet from their speakers. In addition, this 105dB is not supposed to be peak, its supposed to be a sustainable output. The official method to field test this is not accurate in the slightest because it doesn't create a distortion threshold. A stepped sine distortion test or a test similar to the CEA-2010 test (but modified to RMS levels) is what should probably be used.

In any case, given the average sensitivity of most speakers is around 89dB at 1w/1M and the average receiver is unlikely to achieve more than 150 watts RMS per channel, the best you can expect to achieve at a 12 foot listening distance is just 100dB's. That is 5dB short of reference. It would require 500 watts to achieve 105dB from that single speaker, which realistically the receiver will never achieve, most external amps can't achieve, and most speakers can't handle. This is why I'm an advocate of high sensitivity speakers. While 105 may not happen, you can also argue that this is a little extreme and that a more peak like test is adequate for most people, which implies that having a good 200-300 watt RMS external amplifier is probably still an advantage as it should provide for about 3dB of extra output.

Keeping with that general idea, the other advantage of external amps is that it frees up some of the power supplies capacity in the receiver to ensure that under high peak demand scenarios where most or all of the speakers are being driven to high levels, the receiver's internal amps can still provide sufficient power to the remaining speakers. Many receivers, even the most monstrous receivers, can often drive a single channel or pair of channels to the amp peak, say 150 watts, just fine. Add in another 5 channels and suddenly its only doing 110 watts. Power the front two speakers with an external 150 watt amp, and you might see 150 watts across all channels again. Yes that is just 1dB difference in this scenario, but if you have the amps, it doesn't hurt, and there are other peak demand considerations. Most external amps can also put out a lot more power over a short duration than can a receiver. It's not uncommon for external amps to be under-rated and receivers to be a bit over-rated. In practice you probably would find more like a 2-3 dB difference.

I actually consider a receiver to always be inadequate to power a system to reference levels as there are very few speakers on the market that are sensitive enough to reach 105dB at the listening position on just 100-150 watts.

He's listening at -10 to -20 from reference, how about those calculations?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Oh I missed that point. Then he is probably in the ball park of where he needs to be. The amps still help ensure you don’t end up inadvertently clipping.

These are 4 ohm speakers and this draw more current than 8ohm speakers. That is often a greater challenge than delivering the voltage. His most sensitive speaker is the tower and it’s 92dB but as a 4ohm it’s still the equivalent of an 89dB 8ohm speaker, and keep in mind real tests often show less than the manufacturer claims. i can’t find a bench test for that specific Denon but I feel confident in saying it certainly doesn’t double its output at 4ohms. My guess would be about 20%-30% more but with greater loss as the number of channels driven.

My honest opinion is that this thing probably puts out less than 100 watts with 13 channels driven at the same time full tilt. I know now that he listens at a lower level, but I would guess that the system is still near its limit at -10db from Reference. Actual calculations suggest he would be at 98dB peak but that is close enough to his actual peak listening level to suggest he may occasionally clip his amps. I listen much louder, but with my 95db 1W/1M 8ohm speakers on a receiver rated for 130 watts per channel, and only powering the center channel and 4 surround speakers, I have audibly clipped the amplifier with a -5dB playback level (and later confirmed by directly measuring the receiver while connected to the actual speaker and under a similar test signal condition).

 

[lovinthehd]

What amp actually doubles it's output at 4 ohm rather than just a play on spec? If my Denon 8 to 4 ohm increase is similar, per bench test I come up with 38% increase from 8 to 4 ohm in any case. The 100wpc for all 13 ch is probably high, but also probably an ACD spec is not all that important either. Still boils down to whether it's an audible improvement to the listener and/or if extra expense for outboard amps is worthwhile. Really hard to determine over the internet by others....

 

[Matthew J Poes]

What amp actually doubles it's output at 4 ohm rather than just a play on spec? If my Denon 8 to 4 ohm increase is similar, per bench test I come up with 38% increase from 8 to 4 ohm in any case. The 100wpc for all 13 ch is probably high, but also probably an ACD spec is not all that important either. Still boils down to whether it's an audible improvement to the listener and/or if extra expense for outboard amps is worthwhile. Really hard to determine over the internet by others....

Absolutely. There is no way to know without tests. My own experience is that it isn’t uncommon to clip amps. There is even some speculation (based in part on a bit of research) that the common complaint of commercial cinemas being too loud is actually caused by audible distortion. Many commercial cinemas are being pushed beyond their limits by modern soundtracks. I’ve experienced this plenty in peoples home theaters and calculations of output suggest this is likely to occur.

I decided to do a little back of the envelope calculations to see how much of an issue this could be. I used 95 dB as the maximum level. I came up with 20 watts per effect speaker as needed to achieve this because they are rated in groups. 4 surrounds, 4-6 atmos, that kind of thing. I came up with a need for up to 200 watts across the effect speakers of all 10 are asked to play and each group is reaching ~95dB. Class ab amps are only about 50-60% efficient and the Denon has a 900 watt power supply. Likely only 800-850 of those watts are available to the amps. I estimated then that the front three channels only have about 250 watts of power supply going to them. That’s about 85 watts per front speaker. At that point we are at the 95dB level per front speaker or even a bit below.

It suggests that clipping is a possibility in some scenarios, but I agree, this is an extreme test. It does show though that this very powerful receiver stands little chance of ever allowing a full 13.2 channel system of hitting reference levels. My calculations suggest it’s limit is closer to -10dB.

 

[lovinthehd]

Absolutely. There is no way to know without tests. My own experience is that it isn’t uncommon to clip amps. There is even some speculation (based in part on a bit of research) that the common complaint of commercial cinemas being too loud is actually caused by audible distortion. Many commercial cinemas are being pushed beyond their limits by modern soundtracks. I’ve experienced this plenty in peoples home theaters and calculations of output suggest this is likely to occur.

I decided to do a little back of the envelope calculations to see how much of an issue this could be. I used 95 dB as the maximum level. I came up with 20 watts per effect speaker as needed to achieve this because they are rated in groups. 4 surrounds, 4-6 atmos, that kind of thing. I came up with a need for up to 200 watts across the effect speakers of all 10 are asked to play and each group is reaching ~95dB. Class ab amps are only about 50-60% efficient and the Denon has a 900 watt power supply. Likely only 800-850 of those watts are available to the amps. I estimated then that the front three channels only have about 250 watts of power supply going to them. That’s about 85 watts per front speaker. At that point we are at the 95dB level per front speaker or even a bit below.

It suggests that clipping is a possibility in some scenarios, but I agree, this is an extreme test. It does show though that this very powerful receiver stands little chance of ever allowing a full 13.2 channel system of hitting reference levels. My calculations suggest it’s limit is closer to -10dB.

How do you figure it only has a 900w power supply?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

How do you figure it only has a 900w power supply?

The manual rated it for 900 watts so it’s the best assumption I can make.

 

[lovinthehd]

It's just a power consumption spec with unknown parameters.....my Denon is rated 780 similarly and yet it can put out a fairly clean 108wpc into 7 ch. It would be nice to have an actual spec, tho.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

It's just a power consumption spec with unknown parameters.....my Denon is rated 780 similarly and yet it can put out a fairly clean 108wpc into 7 ch. It would be nice to have an actual spec, tho.

It’s the best number we have. No way to know without testing. Lots of components draw more power under peak demand than they are rated for, but how much is unknown. Some components, like Behringer amps, have been shown to actually draw a dangerously higher amount. If I recall, one of the amps drew enough current to need a 30 amp outlet but was rated to operate on a 20 amp outlet. That’s a huge excess.

All of this is beside the point. I was trying to calculate a conservative set of numbers to suggest if it is possible to be near the limits even under these conditions. I showed it’s possible. It is also possible that the receiver doubles its power into 4 ohms, can draw over 3000 watts from the wall, and that the speakers are even more sensitive than rated. I just had to assume none of that was true.

I think clipping is more common than people realize and that many folks wouldn’t recognize it until it’s very extreme unless they learned what to listen for. If you think about it, the time when this is most likely to happen in a movie is also the time when the movie is reproducing something that is probably very chaotic. A warm scene with lots of yelling and explosions, a rocket launching, etc. if you look at what those waveforms look like, it’s not uncommon to see similarities to distorted waveforms so I think sometimes we miss the distortion. When I happened to notice it in my own system, it was because the dialogue was obviously distorting. I may not have noticed if I didn’t hear the voices and knew what they were supposed to sound like.

In my above mentioned scenario i was honestly shocked. I think forum wisdom has been that amps, even receivers put out a good bit more power when needed, that it was rare if ever that movies would provide such unreasonable peak demand, that it would be of short duration, and clipping an amp during a movie was unlikely. When I heard it I actually thought some testing I had done earlier may have damaged the compression driver in my speaker. I took it apart and the Cd was fine. I ran sweeps using a 1000 watt pro amp and the distortion levels were not only fine, but I wasn’t seeing any rise until extremely loud levels well beyond my prior playback. I asked a friend of mine, who works in the industry, what he thought. Clipping! No way, how could a 95dB efficient speaker (I’ve tested these, it’s a real and confirmed number) possibly clip a receiver that was only powering one big speaker that loud and a handful of small but efficient surround speakers (likely only drawing 20-30 watts). He suggested I run some tests so I had another friend come over and we basically recreated the scenario and tested it. We found that all my assumptions were right, but the main amp was putting out about 100-120 watts to that center and it was starting to clip (clean output turned out to be only about 85 watts in this scenario). We came up with a few more tests to directly test the clipping and confirmed that was the problem. I switched in another amp for the center and the problem was gone. If I had that experience it makes me think it must be more common than you might think.

 

[lovinthehd]

It’s the best number we have. No way to know without testing. Lots of components draw more power under peak demand than they are rated for, but how much is unknown. Some components, like Behringer amps, have been shown to actually draw a dangerously higher amount. If I recall, one of the amps drew enough current to need a 30 amp outlet but was rated to operate on a 20 amp outlet. That’s a huge excess.

All of this is beside the point. I was trying to calculate a conservative set of numbers to suggest if it is possible to be near the limits even under these conditions. I showed it’s possible. It is also possible that the receiver doubles its power into 4 ohms, can draw over 3000 watts from the wall, and that the speakers are even more sensitive than rated. I just had to assume none of that was true.

I think clipping is more common than people realize and that many folks wouldn’t recognize it until it’s very extreme unless they learned what to listen for. If you think about it, the time when this is most likely to happen in a movie is also the time when the movie is reproducing something that is probably very chaotic. A warm scene with lots of yelling and explosions, a rocket launching, etc. if you look at what those waveforms look like, it’s not uncommon to see similarities to distorted waveforms so I think sometimes we miss the distortion. When I happened to notice it in my own system, it was because the dialogue was obviously distorting. I may not have noticed if I didn’t hear the voices and knew what they were supposed to sound like.

In my above mentioned scenario i was honestly shocked. I think forum wisdom has been that amps, even receivers put out a good bit more power when needed, that it was rare if ever that movies would provide such unreasonable peak demand, that it would be of short duration, and clipping an amp during a movie was unlikely. When I heard it I actually thought some testing I had done earlier may have damaged the compression driver in my speaker. I took it apart and the Cd was fine. I ran sweeps using a 1000 watt pro amp and the distortion levels were not only fine, but I wasn’t seeing any rise until extremely loud levels well beyond my prior playback. I asked a friend of mine, who works in the industry, what he thought. Clipping! No way, how could a 95dB efficient speaker (I’ve tested these, it’s a real and confirmed number) possibly clip a receiver that was only powering one big speaker that loud and a handful of small but efficient surround speakers (likely only drawing 20-30 watts). He suggested I run some tests so I had another friend come over and we basically recreated the scenario and tested it. We found that all my assumptions were right, but the main amp was putting out about 100-120 watts to that center and it was starting to clip (clean output turned out to be only about 85 watts in this scenario). We came up with a few more tests to directly test the clipping and confirmed that was the problem. I switched in another amp for the center and the problem was gone. If I had that experience it makes me think it must be more common than you might think.

Yeah, I get all that. If I were playing at reference levels I'd probably add amps, too. If it's just in explosions and such, no big deal really. The pic on the Denon site shows the side label almost but unfortunately can't read it.... With typical amp efficiency for A/B class and the power for the rest of the needs of the avr aside from amp, just think it's likely a bigger power supply than 900W "power consumption". Only Denon knows....wonder if they'll provide that info if asked....

 

[PENG]

In any case, given the average sensitivity of most speakers is around 89dB at 1w/1M and the average receiver is unlikely to achieve more than 150 watts RMS per channel, the best you can expect to achieve at a 12 foot listening distance is just 100dB's. That is 5dB short of reference. It would require 500 watts to achieve 105dB from that single speaker, which realistically the receiver will never achieve, most external amps can't achieve, and most speakers can't handle.

You made some good points, but let's look at some facts:

1. The OP said "Using a laser measuring device, my MLP does not exceed 106" from the furthermost speaker location (most are far shorter than that). " Based on 89 dB/1W/1m, that is 92 dB/2.83 V/1m, he only needs 150 W to achieve 105 dB sitting 9 feet, that's 108".

2. That calculator HD linked calculate peaks, so the calculated 150 W is peak, or 75 W average. That means the 150 W rated AVR-X8500H will have at least 3 dB of headroom when delivering reference level at his mlp.

3. The 150 W rating is for 8 ohms, if you look at Denon's bench test data (Audioholics.com, soundandvision.com etc.) based on their past flag ship models, we can expect the AVR-X8500H to manage at least 200 WPC into 4 ohms, two channel driven.

According to Audiovision.de's test bench:

"With a terrific 161 watts per box in 5-channel operation (4 ohms),140 watts in 7-channel mode (4 ohms) and lush 260 watts in stereo (4 ohms),the Denon AVC-X8500H is master of any situation."

4. Audiovision probably measured output at 1% THD, so to be conservative, I would discount their figures by about 10-15% to project output at the more stringent THD of 0.1%.

5. The OP also said "Part of the attraction of the 8500 was to consolidate amplification" So while more power than needed never hurts, I would hesitate to tell him he needs to keep those amps, after paying a fortune for a 52 lbs Denon.

6. Power consumption specs can only get you in the ball park and can be used to compare models by the same manufacturers, in this case, Denon and Marantz only. Power consumption spec does not equal power supply rating spec. If the AVR-X8500H's power consumption is 900 W then I am comfortable to assume it has a stronger power supply than the Marantz SR8012 and Denon AVR-X6500H that has their power consumption specified 780 W and 750 W respectively, but I wouldn't speculate the power supply rating of any of them. My educated guess is that their continuous duty would likely be much less, while their short term rating would likely be much higher, because such small power transformer typically have very good short term overload capability. If severe overload condition is prolonged, they would fail, or shutdown on thermal protection.

I think HD is right, if he doesn't typically exceed -10 when watching movies, he should be fine, assuming the level settings are at 0 or within +/- a few dB post Audyssey.

 

[Stephen Novosel]

Yeah, thanks, I'm becoming resigned to thinking that the quickest way to even begin to sort this out is to haul in the XPA5 for "testing". My fear is that I won't be able to discern via hearing whether or not the "5" would be of any benefit or just dead weight (and as you know, it's weighty and not something I want to be bringing in/out if I don't have a reason).

Matthew, does it make any difference in your calculations to know that the most sensitive (per ML spec) is actually 94 dB for the entire system. Only the R/L towers are 92 dB.

Also, I've noticed that since I moved from a Yamaha 3040 to the Denon 8500, the Denon requires me to go closer to -10 than with the Yammy which I would drive down to about -17 to -22 (depending on how content was recorded). Or, not having previously owned a Denon, are they calibrated that way which would explain the minor difference? (I had a LX901 Elite in here two weeks ago and I wish I would have paid closer attention to its performance settings in-use for comparison purposes).

I do have a miniDSP UMIK and REW on a laptop. I just haven't had the time to do a deep dive to learn how to use them, but I could if you think that would answer my questions.

I've read references to "distortion" and "clipping" but I don't recall ever hearing either in any of my system setups over the years. Maybe it's been there and I was simply too ignorant to know what to listen for? Would I be out of line if I were to use this YouTuber's examples as a gauge:

.

Is it fair to say that even if distortion/clipping surfaces albeit rarely and only under atypical "demanding" scene-cases (1:100 films), that it's too risky for either or both amp and speakers to take a chance and leave it unaddressed? Or is that too extreme a position?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Yeah, thanks, I'm becoming resigned to thinking that the quickest way to even begin to sort this out is to haul in the XPA5 for "testing". My fear is that I won't be able to discern via hearing whether or not the "5" would be of any benefit or just dead weight (and as you know, it's weighty and not something I want to be bringing in/out if I don't have a reason).

Matthew, does it make any difference in your calculations to know that the most sensitive (per ML spec) is actually 94 dB for the entire system. Only the R/L towers are 92 dB.

Also, I've noticed that since I moved from a Yamaha 3040 to the Denon 8500, the Denon requires me to go closer to -10 than with the Yammy which I would drive down to about -17 to -22 (depending on how content was recorded). Or, not having previously owned a Denon, are they calibrated that way which would explain the minor difference? (I had a LX901 Elite in here two weeks ago and I wish I would have paid closer attention to its performance settings in-use for comparison purposes).

I do have a miniDSP UMIK and REW on a laptop. I just haven't had the time to do a deep dive to learn how to use them, but I could if you think that would answer my questions.

I've read references to "distortion" and "clipping" but I don't recall ever hearing either in any of my system setups over the years. Maybe it's been there and I was simply too ignorant to know what to listen for? Would I be out of line if I were to use this YouTuber's examples as a gauge:

.

Is it fair to say that even if distortion/clipping surfaces albeit rarely and only under atypical "demanding" scene-cases (1:100 films),that it's too risky for either or both amp and speakers to take a chance and leave it unaddressed? Or is that too extreme a position?

it's not risky if it's for brief moments. listening to a system that clipping excessively and often is an issue, but I was not suggesting that.

if you watch a dynamic scene in a movie at the loudest level you like and you can't hear a differebce, don't add the amp and don't lose another nights sleep over it. everything all of us are saying is just speculation.

I misunderstood your situation when I first commented and while my point remains valid and there might even be a concern in your scenario, even I contended that you are probably find. I happen to have a system th at distorts. We all have our system sensitivities right?

 

[Stephen Novosel]

I think HD is right, if he doesn't typically exceed -10 when watching movies, he should be fine, assuming the level settings are at 0 or within +/- a few dB post Audyssey.

Yes, the level settings are at 0 post Audyssey.