Wilcox Gay Recordette 8J10U record cutting lathe... got several questions.

KaatheSnake

KaatheSnake

Senior Audioholic
Hi guys,
I'm bidding on a Wilcox Gay Recordette unit from about 1950, which I understand was used to make 78 RPM home recordings on blank acetate discs before reel to reel tape was brought into the home. I've read several articles about these machines that say that these units have a crystal cartridge... which often fails due to the crystal breaking up. The cartridge in this unit is used to cut and play back the record. I was wondering if any of ya'll had heard of these, and how you could repair the Shure or Astatic crystal cartridge in this machine. The cutting head acts as a loudspeaker during recording, which vibrates a needle, which cuts the vibrations onto the disc. Then it plays back the vibrations of the disc after the record is cut. It has a tube amplifier in it, which means I'll have to recap the amp, and put in a new filter can. Maybe I could use a piezo pickup, or something?
Thanks,
Ryan
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Not familiar with those, but sounds like a cool piece of gear!
I would not expect the sound quality to be very good, otherwise I think they would have been more popular!

Can you still find the blank acetate discs, are they still in production or are you buying old ones?
Plastic changes over 60 years, so if they are old discs, I would not bet on their ability to accept a grove as originally intended! The worst aging effect is exposure to UV light!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi guys,
I'm bidding on a Wilcox Gay Recordette unit from about 1950, which I understand was used to make 78 RPM home recordings on blank acetate discs before reel to reel tape was brought into the home. I've read several articles about these machines that say that these units have a crystal cartridge... which often fails due to the crystal breaking up. The cartridge in this unit is used to cut and play back the record. I was wondering if any of ya'll had heard of these, and how you could repair the Shure or Astatic crystal cartridge in this machine. The cutting head acts as a loudspeaker during recording, which vibrates a needle, which cuts the vibrations onto the disc. Then it plays back the vibrations of the disc after the record is cut. It has a tube amplifier in it, which means I'll have to recap the amp, and put in a new filter can. Maybe I could use a piezo pickup, or something?
Thanks,
Ryan
I don't think you want to get tangled up with that. It was designed for recording from the radio. It has a super het AM medium wave radio and can record from a cheap crystal microphone. (Crystal) piezo devices of that period would fail after a few years. My first PU and cartridge was an Acos Black Shadow back in the mid fifties. There was a 78 head and an LP. You slid the heads on and off the arm. I have never found a picture of one on the NET. Anyhow the crystal devices in the head used to turn to gel and ooze out for reasons that are unknown to me. There is no repair for this. You would not be able to record from a current crystal cartridge. I also highly doubt that the wax discs are available for those any longer.​
This is a picture of one from the radio museum.​
Of course tape recorders were coming on apace, which was the preferred method of recording until the digital era.​
If you want something to interest you I recommend you find a vintage tape recorder to restore.​
Honestly I don't think that is a good restoration project for you.​
 
KaatheSnake

KaatheSnake

Senior Audioholic
Not familiar with those, but sounds like a cool piece of gear!
I would not expect the sound quality to be very good, otherwise I think they would have been more popular!

Can you still find the blank acetate discs, are they still in production or are you buying old ones?
Plastic changes over 60 years, so if they are old discs, I would not bet on their ability to accept a grove as originally intended! The worst aging effect is exposure to UV light!
A guy named "Apollo Masters" still makes lacquer blank discs. Of course the sound quality is not amazing, as this is a low quality home recorder. And, @TLS Guy , I have a very good friend up in Ohio who repairs those cartridges. And yes, even though it's a low quality recorder, you can plug in from a different audio source and RIAA frequency response.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
A guy named "Apollo Masters" still makes lacquer blank discs. Of course the sound quality is not amazing, as this is a low quality home recorder. And, @TLS Guy , I have a very good friend up in Ohio who repairs those cartridges. And yes, even though it's a low quality recorder, you can plug in from a different audio source and RIAA frequency response.
Interesting. I have never heard of anyone repairing crystal cartridges.

The RIAA curve is interesting as 78s did not use the RIAA curve, just LPs and the 45s.

In the days of the 78 recording companies had their own curves. Not that it mattered much as a very large number of gramophones were entirely acoustic with no electronics, so there was no possibility of accurate playback of any curve.

In fact here is a picture of the Eq of 78s from various firms to set the correct buttons to select the correct playback EQ on my old Quad 22 tube preamp. Also shown is my Decca ffss 78 RPM variable reluctance moving iron cartridge. It is attached to a rare adapter for the SME series one and 2 PU arms. You can see the button combinations on the plastic card for the various record labels.



This is my SME series II improved arm.



The Decca cartridges were deigned to integrate to the Decca ffss and Decca professional PU arms.

Picture of my Decca ffss professional arm without cartridge on. Also shown is the Decca Brush and a very rare Auriol lift from the fifties.



Here is my Decca ffss H4E variable reluctance moving iron cartridge on the Decca ffss professional arm. The turntable is a Garrard 301.



It does seem to me you have an interest in being a collector restorer. At some point you have to decide what it is you really want to collect and restore. Especially, you want to decide on restoring gear that can actually perform and hold its won, and then some with modern counterparts, or collect museum type curios like that disc cutter. The latter is certainly a worthwhile endeavor, but the items are not of any practical use. Either they are items of historic significance or footnote curios like that disc recorder. You can't get involved in everything. Like all things in life choices have to be made.

I know you are interested in reel to reel tape recorders. Collecting and learning to restore those is certainly a worthwhile endeavor. Those of us who know, how to restore and set up those machines are now getting well past our sell by date. So it would be great to have a youngster like you want to learn that art and skill. I can't sugar coat it, but is an art and requires great skill to do it properly. You also do have to have equipment. You need physics lab certified alignment tapes, a FET meter, a signal generator a dual channel O-scope, a distortion meter, and if you work on feedback tach controlled machines, which is all the later models, then you need a frequency counter. So collecting these items is a first step. No reel to reel machines will be at peak optimal performance without regular tweeking.

There is nothing wrong with learning to record and edit analog tape. However leaning to make seamless noise free tape splices with an editing block, pencil and razor blade is an arduous but worthwhile skill to learn.

If you are planning to be a recording producer engineer then you will also need to work in the digital arena. In so many ways it is a very different skill set than what is required for analog recording.

I know you are a digiphobe, but you should not be. The fact is, with the right skill set you can make better and more life like recordings in the digital domain. By far the biggest advantage is no loss of quality after multiple dubs. In the analog world you dare not edit a master, less you ruin it, So you have to make one dub at least to do the editing, and any Eq etc. So right away you have halved S/N and doubled distortion. In addition in order to match digital you have to use noise reduction. So you have to be keenly aware of upsetting dynamics in any dub. In using noise reduction, which as I have said you must use in your masters, then the tape machines must be very carefully set up as frequency response errors are doubled versus no noise reduction.

For digital recording you need a totally different approach, especially as signal overload is much more serious. So in the digital domain you need much more extensive metering, over half a screens worth.

However editing on the computer is much easier and a more easily acquired skill then razor blade editing.

As in the analog world you need really good equipment. Don't let anyone tell you, you can use free or cheap software. For professional results you can't. The basics are a good DAW, which I strongly suggest you design and build yourself. Many decisions on DAW design and set up are very personal. You need good mics, and a selection, bout which we have spoken before. Also required is a good mixer DAC, that can be controlled from the same screen as the DAW and integrates well with your software.

If you want to get serious about this, you have to learn to make a good job in the digital domain. Unfortunately there are far too many working in the field who have not developed the requisite skill sets and produce garbage. In the world of pop the world is literally awash in it.

Here you can see what I mean. This shows my DAW and mixer screen and plays a recording made at 15 ips 2 track dbx 1 NR. It is a live recording for FM radio broadcast.


Here is a digital recording, again made for radio broadcast.

 
KaatheSnake

KaatheSnake

Senior Audioholic
Interesting. I have never heard of anyone repairing crystal cartridges.

The RIAA curve is interesting as 78s did not use the RIAA curve, just LPs and the 45s.

In the days of the 78 recording companies had their own curves. Not that it mattered much as a very large number of gramophones were entirely acoustic with no electronics, so there was no possibility of accurate playback of any curve.

In fact here is a picture of the Eq of 78s from various firms to set the correct buttons to select the correct playback EQ on my old Quad 22 tube preamp. Also shown is my Decca ffss 78 RPM variable reluctance moving iron cartridge. It is attached to a rare adapter for the SME series one and 2 PU arms. You can see the button combinations on the plastic card for the various record labels.



This is my SME series II improved arm.



The Decca cartridges were deigned to integrate to the Decca ffss and Decca professional PU arms.

Picture of my Decca ffss professional arm without cartridge on. Also shown is the Decca Brush and a very rare Auriol lift from the fifties.



Here is my Decca ffss H4E variable reluctance moving iron cartridge on the Decca ffss professional arm. The turntable is a Garrard 301.



It does seem to me you have an interest in being a collector restorer. At some point you have to decide what it is you really want to collect and restore. Especially, you want to decide on restoring gear that can actually perform and hold its won, and then some with modern counterparts, or collect museum type curios like that disc cutter. The latter is certainly a worthwhile endeavor, but the items are not of any practical use. Either they are items of historic significance or footnote curios like that disc recorder. You can't get involved in everything. Like all things in life choices have to be made.

I know you are interested in reel to reel tape recorders. Collecting and learning to restore those is certainly a worthwhile endeavor. Those of us who know, how to restore and set up those machines are now getting well past our sell by date. So it would be great to have a youngster like you want to learn that art and skill. I can't sugar coat it, but is an art and requires great skill to do it properly. You also do have to have equipment. You need physics lab certified alignment tapes, a FET meter, a signal generator a dual channel O-scope, a distortion meter, and if you work on feedback tach controlled machines, which is all the later models, then you need a frequency counter. So collecting these items is a first step. No reel to reel machines will be at peak optimal performance without regular tweeking.

There is nothing wrong with learning to record and edit analog tape. However leaning to make seamless noise free tape splices with an editing block, pencil and razor blade is an arduous but worthwhile skill to learn.

If you are planning to be a recording producer engineer then you will also need to work in the digital arena. In so many ways it is a very different skill set than what is required for analog recording.

I know you are a digiphobe, but you should not be. The fact is, with the right skill set you can make better and more life like recordings in the digital domain. By far the biggest advantage is no loss of quality after multiple dubs. In the analog world you dare not edit a master, less you ruin it, So you have to make one dub at least to do the editing, and any Eq etc. So right away you have halved S/N and doubled distortion. In addition in order to match digital you have to use noise reduction. So you have to be keenly aware of upsetting dynamics in any dub. In using noise reduction, which as I have said you must use in your masters, then the tape machines must be very carefully set up as frequency response errors are doubled versus no noise reduction.

For digital recording you need a totally different approach, especially as signal overload is much more serious. So in the digital domain you need much more extensive metering, over half a screens worth.

However editing on the computer is much easier and a more easily acquired skill then razor blade editing.

As in the analog world you need really good equipment. Don't let anyone tell you, you can use free or cheap software. For professional results you can't. The basics are a good DAW, which I strongly suggest you design and build yourself. Many decisions on DAW design and set up are very personal. You need good mics, and a selection, bout which we have spoken before. Also required is a good mixer DAC, that can be controlled from the same screen as the DAW and integrates well with your software.

If you want to get serious about this, you have to learn to make a good job in the digital domain. Unfortunately there are far too many working in the field who have not developed the requisite skill sets and produce garbage. In the world of pop the world is literally awash in it.

Here you can see what I mean. This shows my DAW and mixer screen and plays a recording made at 15 ips 2 track dbx 1 NR. It is a live recording for FM radio broadcast.


Here is a digital recording, again made for radio broadcast.

Thank you so very much for writing such a long message! That's very kind of you. That's a lot of information! I am very good with digital equipment, and know about every feature in Logic Pro X there is, but I'm a digiphobe, which is bad in some respects, and in others good. If you get engulfed in the world of digital too much, you start learning how to "cheat" with recording, like using TINY splices of one guitar strum of each chord to make a song. Analog, on the other hand, you have to get one clean take, and if there are any mistakes, you have to go back and redo them. At least on tape you can erase what you've recorded, unlike direct to disc, in which the grooves are cut onto the disc forever. You can punch in/punch out on tape, but you have to be very experienced with it, because if you punch at the wrong time, it could ruin the whole track. I mean, 1/4 beat off in punching can ruin the track. Tape has some risky things, like tape getting tangled around the reel during rewind and fast forward, tape breaking (which is unlikely on polyester tape,) and punching, but it has several advantages, like excellent tone, fun to work with, easy to use with a small recording application, etc. My TEAC A3340S is a 4 track machine, which means you can record 4 mono tracks on one side of 1/4" tape. That's a little below ultra professional quality, but I've made SEVERAL amazing quality recordings on that thing. 15 IPS is what makes that machine, along with the automatic Simul Sync in time track syncing mechanism, and the ease of use on the multitracking. Professional quality machines like Studer, Scully, Ampex, etc, if they're 4 track, they use 1/2" tape, leaving four more tracks if overdubbing is needed, etc. Joe Meek is an example of a man who used home quality recording equipment, and was a genius with editing tape, and overdubbing. He used an old Ampex 301-2 tube 7 1/2 IPS home recording deck, and an old BBC? I think mono machine. He was brilliant in sound, Clem Cattini, a famous session drummer, is one of the fellows who worked with him. See, you don't have to have the best quality equipment in the world to make an amazing recording. It all depends on knowledge of your equipment. Anyway, that's about all I've got for now
Thanks,
Ryan
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thank you so very much for writing such a long message! That's very kind of you. That's a lot of information! I am very good with digital equipment, and know about every feature in Logic Pro X there is, but I'm a digiphobe, which is bad in some respects, and in others good. If you get engulfed in the world of digital too much, you start learning how to "cheat" with recording, like using TINY splices of one guitar strum of each chord to make a song. Analog, on the other hand, you have to get one clean take, and if there are any mistakes, you have to go back and redo them. At least on tape you can erase what you've recorded, unlike direct to disc, in which the grooves are cut onto the disc forever. You can punch in/punch out on tape, but you have to be very experienced with it, because if you punch at the wrong time, it could ruin the whole track. I mean, 1/4 beat off in punching can ruin the track. Tape has some risky things, like tape getting tangled around the reel during rewind and fast forward, tape breaking (which is unlikely on polyester tape,) and punching, but it has several advantages, like excellent tone, fun to work with, easy to use with a small recording application, etc. My TEAC A3340S is a 4 track machine, which means you can record 4 mono tracks on one side of 1/4" tape. That's a little below ultra professional quality, but I've made SEVERAL amazing quality recordings on that thing. 15 IPS is what makes that machine, along with the automatic Simul Sync in time track syncing mechanism, and the ease of use on the multitracking. Professional quality machines like Studer, Scully, Ampex, etc, if they're 4 track, they use 1/2" tape, leaving four more tracks if overdubbing is needed, etc. Joe Meek is an example of a man who used home quality recording equipment, and was a genius with editing tape, and overdubbing. He used an old Ampex 301-2 tube 7 1/2 IPS home recording deck, and an old BBC? I think mono machine. He was brilliant in sound, Clem Cattini, a famous session drummer, is one of the fellows who worked with him. See, you don't have to have the best quality equipment in the world to make an amazing recording. It all depends on knowledge of your equipment. Anyway, that's about all I've got for now
Thanks,
Ryan
As far as sessions go I don't think you need to plan it differently for analog or digital. I think it is far better and more musical to work in long takes. Sometimes you have to edit in a small phrase from one take to another, bu that is OK in analog or digital. Whatever you do it must be musical.

Yes, you do know the best machines, Ampex Studer/Revox and Scully. For the pre solenoid decks I would add Ferrograph and the other machines based on the Wearite deck.

Ferrograph series 2. We had one just like this in our home went I was very young.



The BBC machine you referred to was probably a Brenell Mk 5 similar to this one. The BBC had a lot of them.
I cut my teeth on one of these when I was about your age.



The machine was originally mono but I converted it to Stereo much later. I actually still have it. It is in bits, but I'm pretty sure I have them all. I have been idle and never got round to restoring it.

I replaced it with a Brenell MK 6. I have the rare machine with the parabolic tape path over the heads. The BBC had a lot at one time. The bulk of these machines were made for the BBC in the early seventies. Unfortunately they were scrapped and not sold off. They were all bespoke to a degree. For instance mine has two track and four track playback heads. I have a strong suspicion mine may be the only one left in the world now.

Here is my Brenell MK 6. It is the silver machine.

 
KaatheSnake

KaatheSnake

Senior Audioholic
As far as sessions go I don't think you need to plan it differently for analog or digital. I think it is far better and more musical to work in long takes. Sometimes you have to edit in a small phrase from one take to another, bu that is OK in analog or digital. Whatever you do it must be musical.

Yes, you do know the best machines, Ampex Studer/Revox and Scully. For the pre solenoid decks I would add Ferrograph and the other machines based on the Wearite deck.

Ferrograph series 2. We had one just like this in our home went I was very young.



The BBC machine you referred to was probably a Brenell Mk 5 similar to this one. The BBC had a lot of them.
I cut my teeth on one of these when I was about your age.



The machine was originally mono but I converted it to Stereo much later. I actually still have it. It is in bits, but I'm pretty sure I have them all. I have been idle and never got round to restoring it.

I replaced it with a Brenell MK 6. I have the rare machine with the parabolic tape path over the heads. The BBC had a lot at one time. The bulk of these machines were made for the BBC in the early seventies. Unfortunately they were scrapped and not sold off. They were all bespoke to a degree. For instance mine has two track and four track playback heads. I have a strong suspicion mine may be the only one left in the world now.

Here is my Brenell MK 6. It is the silver machine.

Yes, the brenell was the machine I was referring to. I'm going against the Recordette, too much work for nothing out of it.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, the brenell was the machine I was referring to. I'm going against the Recordette, too much work for nothing out of it.
I think you were wise to pass on the Recordette. I suspect that was a POS out of the starting gate.

Interesting you have come across the Brenell line, which is not at all well known in North America.

I have a friend, Barry M. Jones, who is quite a renowned audio historian, especially on tape recording. He lives in the countryside at Beckley Sussex. He has a website and has published a number of books which you can purchase from his site.

He has a lot of information and history about Brenell right on this site.

This winter I will see if I get time to dig out the old Brenell and see if I can find all the parts in my bins.

I think you will find his website really interesting.
 

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