4 uls-15 mk2’s vs 4 pb-2000’s

[Reckel]

Elitist jargon? Good grief. IMO a true subwoofer operates down to the extent of human hearing, i.e. 20hz. If a sub operated only from 60-200hz it would be fairly meaningless IMO.

Agreed dude

 

[Defcon]

I'd agree a lot of the subs being discussed will do the job and are very close to each other in performance, but I'm still an advocate of a bit of overkill to let them operate at relatively lower levels for advantages in distortion and overhead. As to crossover, I use 100 even with my towers (and my subs work well up to 300hz as well). It works better for me in my room. Having a way to measure is a good thing as is a way to implement further eq options than your avr has for subs (such as with a minidsp/measurement mic/REW combo can provide). OTOH sometimes you just have to make up your mind than worry about all the possibilities and what may be relatively small differences among those possibilities. Customer service/warranty enters into it somewhat as well.

As to the last comment, true subwoofers do more than simply operate below 200hz.

Yes, for those who truly needs to get the most performance and quality of bass, its better to spend $100 on the mic/minidsp and learn to use REW which will produce better results and can correct far more than a few db difference. But again this is overkill for 99% of people even on forums like this. That's why I am in favor of subs with built in room correction (like the new Svs) but they are not as powerful/configurable and thus not popular on forums.

The point about overhead/distortion is a good one but IMO it applies far more to speakers and amps - people spend $$$ on power amps/separates when they could just get higher sensitivity speakers that would be better in every way.

 

[Defcon]

I agree. What I have are budget subs that are in the world for people that can not yet afford a real subwoofer. Don’t get me wrong, I obviously bought them and for what they are they are good and at the time they are what I could afford. Well things are different now n I can afford more n I can buy a real sub or subs. Lovin, this is just general statement not directed at you man

There are a few cheaper options that are still pretty good, e.g. the Klipsch 12HG, Bic F-12 which being mass market have frequent deals.

Also subs are very long lasting (as long as the amp doesnt go bad) so make good used purchases.

Here's a good thread - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1364182-list-budget-subwoofers-300-less.html

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, for those who truly needs to get the most performance and quality of bass, its better to spend $100 on the mic/minidsp and learn to use REW which will produce better results and can correct far more than a few db difference. But again this is overkill for 99% of people even on forums like this. That's why I am in favor of subs with built in room correction (like the new Svs) but they are not as powerful/configurable and thus not popular on forums.

The point about overhead/distortion is a good one but IMO it applies far more to speakers and amps - people spend $$$ on power amps/separates when they could just get higher sensitivity speakers that would be better in every way.

Don't know about 99% but it is up there The built in req if flexible enough with multiple subs might be a good way to go.

Subs are speakers driven by amps and to an extent the same principle applies. Higher sensitivity speakers can be a good thing.

 

[lovinthehd]

The bics apparently go down to 22hz, I don’t believe that n I think they’re rolling off quick a lot higher. Bics are not in the same league as any of the companies we’ve discussed. They’re good on the high end but they ain’t digging deep

You can see for yourself some third party testing of that sub's "performance" at 22hz https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=47&mset=45

 

[lovinthehd]

There are a few cheaper options that are still pretty good, e.g. the Klipsch 12HG, Bic F-12 which being mass market have frequent deals.

Also subs are very long lasting (as long as the amp doesnt go bad) so make good used purchases.

Here's a good thread - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1364182-list-budget-subwoofers-300-less.html

He's already got four BIC PL-200s.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yes, for those who truly needs to get the most performance and quality of bass, its better to spend $100 on the mic/minidsp and learn to use REW which will produce better results and can correct far more than a few db difference. But again this is overkill for 99% of people even on forums like this. That's why I am in favor of subs with built in room correction (like the new Svs) but they are not as powerful/configurable and thus not popular on forums.

The point about overhead/distortion is a good one but IMO it applies far more to speakers and amps - people spend $$$ on power amps/separates when they could just get higher sensitivity speakers that would be better in every way.

99%?
I feel like this(and your earlier comment) is more of a blanket statement and refers more to your opinion and YOUR use case than 99% of the people...even on this forum.

 

[Reckel]

He's already got four BIC PL-200s.

Am I an idiot?

 

[Defcon]

99%?
I feel like this(and your earlier comment) is more of a blanket statement and refers more to your opinion and YOUR use case than 99% of the people...even on this forum.

Was a bit of an exaggeration, sure. We all love to obsess over all these details, thats part of the fun of the hobby. The truth comes out in blind tests where people find out just how subjective biases come into play (e.g believing that separates are better or amps sound different) and no one can tell things apart, which is very much true for subs.

 

[Defcon]

He's already got four BIC PL-200s.

Sorry, I missed that. I was replying to his 'are there more budget subs'. I still firmly believe used subs can be a great deal. And course DIY for those who really are into the hobby.

 

[lovinthehd]

Am I an idiot?

??? Just pointing out to defcon suggesting something similar that you've already gone that route....

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry, I missed that. I was replying to his 'are there more budget subs'. I still firmly believe used subs can be a great deal. And course DIY for those who really are into the hobby.

Helps to read the whole thread....it's in his first post too. Used subs would depend where you live as to availability of such. I do DIY, tho.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Was a bit of an exaggeration, sure. We all love to obsess over all these details, thats part of the fun of the hobby. The truth comes out in blind tests where people find out just how subjective biases come into play (e.g believing that separates are better or amps sound different) and no one can tell things apart, which is very much true for subs.

I will agree with that, to a point. IMO blind testing is only as good as it’s operators. Fwiw though I also think content plays a huuuge part, and especially in a blind test. For example, some of the scenes in hacksaw ridge go down to about 2hz iirc. In a blind test with the aforementioned uls, and fv18 I guarantee you’d know which was which.

 

[Reckel]

I will agree with that, to a point. IMO blind testing is only as good as it’s operators. Fwiw though I also think content plays a huuuge part, and especially in a blind test. For example, some of the scenes in hacksaw ridge go down to about 2hz iirc. In a blind test with the aforementioned uls, and fv18 I guarantee you’d know which was which.

I guarantee the bics wouldn’t play that

 

[lovinthehd]

I will agree with that, to a point. IMO blind testing is only as good as it’s operators. Fwiw though I also think content plays a huuuge part, and especially in a blind test. For example, some of the scenes in hacksaw ridge go down to about 2hz iirc. In a blind test with the aforementioned uls, and fv18 I guarantee you’d know which was which.

Other than harmonics of 2hz what sub aside from something like a huge number of capable sealed subs or the rotary TRW17 has a shot at actually doing 2hz? Even the 7 hz of the fuckingirene scene in Black Hawk Down is out of reach of most.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I guarantee the bics wouldn’t play that

Not even close. Your hunch is correct about the 22hz too. I didn’t read the link yet but I’d guess 22hz is about f6 at least!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Other than harmonics of 2hz what sub aside from something like a huge number of capable sealed subs or the rotary TRW17 has a shot at actually doing 2hz? Even the 7 hz of the fuckingirene scene in Black Hawk Down is out of reach of most.

I totally agree. My point was just that there’s a lot of obvious content well below the range of the uls and therefore the big Rythmik would stand out. With tuning to 12.5hz, and surely lower in room extension, I’m sure that would be obvious in a DBT.

 

[Defcon]

I will agree with that, to a point. IMO blind testing is only as good as it’s operators. Fwiw though I also think content plays a huuuge part, and especially in a blind test. For example, some of the scenes in hacksaw ridge go down to about 2hz iirc. In a blind test with the aforementioned uls, and fv18 I guarantee you’d know which was which.

Another popular test everyone loves to use is the Edge of Tomorrow intro which has a bass sweep down to single digits. It can damage subs without a limiter and is often used to show off.

This pursuit of ultimate low level LFE is in the end pointless for most people. You have nutcases on Avs (no offence to nutcases here ) who run 8x 18"monsters in a 1000cuft closed room and still think its not enough.

You have to pick between extension, which is very very $$$ to chase, and mid bass output, which is the 'chest slam' that most people know and want. There are plenty of very respected members on Avs who say that a sub designed for mid-bass (like the DIY Flex/VBSS) is actually better overall.

Its the age old debate between sealed vs ported.

 

[lovinthehd]

Chasing ULF at significant spl can indeed be expensive and of limited use. Just depends what your goals and budget are....

 

[Defcon]

One more thing - the whole 'sealed is better for music, ported for movies' is a myth. Any well designed (and all the brands being discussed here are) ported sub will be just as good for music, and a sealed sub will have lower output near port tune but have some more room gain and more mid bass. Its all a game of compromise.

Also keep in mind that eq'ing or locating 4 subs is going to be harder than with 2. And 2x/4x subs isn't going to be 2x/4x the bass slam, its more to eliminate room nulls, if you care about that sort of thing. My point is you shouldn't necessarily want 4 subs.