4 uls-15 mk2’s vs 4 pb-2000’s

[shadyJ]

a pai of the redesigned FV18s with the paper cone would out perform 4 VTF3s throughout the frequency range and dominate them thoroughly under 25hz. At a recent get together a single one stood up well to a Cap 2400 in a very large room.

No doubt that the FV18 is a great sub, but I don't think that a single FV18, even with paper cone, could outperform a pair of VTF-3 mk5s. Rythmik claims that the paper cone FV18 gives it a 3dB increase at 50 Hz and above, well that still wouldn't be enough to close the gap between two VTF-3 mk5s in that range, which is between 4 to 6 dB. And switching to a lighter cone would degrade the FV18's low frequency performance, not improve it. That would raise its resonant frequency which make it more difficult to deal with lower frequencies. There is always a trade-off; if you lighten up the moving assembly, it comes at the expense of deep bass performance, but if you add weight to the moving assembly, it comes at the expense of higher frequency efficiency.

 

[Reckel]

Idk what subs to buy

 

[Reckel]

Ed from svs suggested that I cross my towers at 60hz and have everything else set to 80hz. Since I’ve had the speakers I’ve been using 80hz, would I see any benefit with towers at 60hz?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ed from svs suggested that I cross my towers at 60hz and have everything else set to 80hz. Since I’ve had the speakers I’ve been using 80hz, would I see any benefit with towers at 60hz?

Depends on the towers. What are they?

 

[Defcon]

In all these debates about subs, on here, Avs etc, people always talk about listed specs, max SPL and differences of a few dB. I think in real life maybe 1% of subs will ever reach that limit, so those differences are moot and will never be heard.

The fact is all the ID brands being discussed like Hsu, Svs, Rhythmik etc are going to be indistinguishable in a blind test and indeed in the many GtG's I've read, that has been the case.

So buy based on price, size, extras (like warranty, free returns) etc, factors which get ignored. If you are one of the few who will actually play a sub near its envelope (and even with reference level playback thats unlikely in most rooms) then by all means the specs matter more.

 

[Reckel]

Depends on the towers. What are they?

Rp-260fs

 

[Reckel]

In all these debates about subs, on here, Avs etc, people always talk about listed specs, max SPL and differences of a few dB. I think in real life maybe 1% of subs will ever reach that limit, so those differences are moot and will never be heard.

The fact is all the ID brands being discussed like Hsu, Svs, Rhythmik etc are going to be indistinguishable in a blind test and indeed in the many GtG's I've read, that has been the case.

So buy based on price, size, extras (like warranty, free returns) etc, factors which get ignored. If you are one of the few who will actually play a sub near its envelope (and even with reference level playback thats unlikely in most rooms) then by all means the specs matter more.

For me hsu subs are better value but svs perks are better

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ed from svs suggested that I cross my towers at 60hz and have everything else set to 80hz. Since I’ve had the speakers I’ve been using 80hz, would I see any benefit with towers at 60hz?

You could try it and see. It might give a smoother response, or you may lose some bass depending on how they act with the room. I used 50hz for a long time but have used 80 for the last few years. In my room 80 works just a little better.

 

[Reckel]

You could try it and see. It might give a smoother response, or you may lose some bass depending on how they act with the room. I used 50hz for a long time but have used 80 for the last few years. In my room 80 works just a little better.

I did other day, the mids seemed a little better n seemed like it blended a little better. Idk, I’ll try it for awhile

 

[Auditor55]

Both would be good choices, but they have different advantages. The PB-2000s would have more deep bass output but the ULS-15s would have more mid-bass output. Review of ULS-15 mk2 and review of PC-2000 (it will have nearly the same exact performance as the PB-2000, the only difference is shape of the enclosure which will not impact performance). The PB-2000s have more output below 30 Hz and the ULS-15s have a lot more output above 30 Hz.

So would that mean one should be preferred for music while the other should be preferred for movies?

 

[Auditor55]

I’m not a hard-core bass head either and I’m not spending 5k on subs but I do want to be hit in the chest on movies. My subs now are 4 bic pl-200’s, they’re good budget subs but imo they’re not true subwoofers. They sound pretty good with the upper end but I think they’re limited in the lower end. I did forget about outlaw, looking at their numbers the x12/vtf2 look comparable and trust me I’d spend less if I’m getting quality. I think anything I get would be an upgrade to what I have now

You say your Bic's are not true subwoofers, are you telling they don't have significant output below 200 HZ? If they do, they are true subwoofers.

 

[lovinthehd]

In all these debates about subs, on here, Avs etc, people always talk about listed specs, max SPL and differences of a few dB. I think in real life maybe 1% of subs will ever reach that limit, so those differences are moot and will never be heard.

The fact is all the ID brands being discussed like Hsu, Svs, Rhythmik etc are going to be indistinguishable in a blind test and indeed in the many GtG's I've read, that has been the case.

So buy based on price, size, extras (like warranty, free returns) etc, factors which get ignored. If you are one of the few who will actually play a sub near its envelope (and even with reference level playback thats unlikely in most rooms) then by all means the specs matter more.

I'd agree a lot of the subs being discussed will do the job and are very close to each other in performance, but I'm still an advocate of a bit of overkill to let them operate at relatively lower levels for advantages in distortion and overhead. As to crossover, I use 100 even with my towers (and my subs work well up to 300hz as well). It works better for me in my room. Having a way to measure is a good thing as is a way to implement further eq options than your avr has for subs (such as with a minidsp/measurement mic/REW combo can provide). OTOH sometimes you just have to make up your mind than worry about all the possibilities and what may be relatively small differences among those possibilities. Customer service/warranty enters into it somewhat as well.

As to the last comment, true subwoofers do more than simply operate below 200hz.

 

[KEW]

Ed from svs suggested that I cross my towers at 60hz and have everything else set to 80hz. Since I’ve had the speakers I’ve been using 80hz, would I see any benefit with towers at 60hz?

I can't answer that specifically, but I would say that Ed is probably the best consultant you would ever be so lucky to communicate with as far as being an almost perfect combination of technical knowledge and ability to communicate clearly with a layman!
SVS was smart to hire him!

 

[Auditor55]

For me hsu subs are better value but svs perks are better

They really standy their products.

 

[Reckel]

I'd agree a lot of the subs being discussed will do the job and are very close to each other in performance, but I'm still an advocate of a bit of overkill to let them operate at relatively lower levels for advantages in distortion and overhead. As to crossover, I use 100 even with my towers (and my subs work well up to 300hz as well). It works better for me in my room. Having a way to measure is a good thing as is a way to implement further eq options than your avr has for subs (such as with a minidsp/measurement mic/REW combo can provide). OTOH sometimes you just have to make up your mind than worry about all the possibilities and what may be relatively small differences among those possibilities. Customer service/warranty enters into it somewhat as well.

As to the last comment, true subwoofers do more than simply operate below 200hz.

I agree. What I have are budget subs that are in the world for people that can not yet afford a real subwoofer. Don’t get me wrong, I obviously bought them and for what they are they are good and at the time they are what I could afford. Well things are different now n I can afford more n I can buy a real sub or subs. Lovin, this is just general statement not directed at you man

 

[Auditor55]

I'd agree a lot of the subs being discussed will do the job and are very close to each other in performance, but I'm still an advocate of a bit of overkill to let them operate at relatively lower levels for advantages in distortion and overhead. As to crossover, I use 100 even with my towers (and my subs work well up to 300hz as well). It works better for me in my room. Having a way to measure is a good thing as is a way to implement further eq options than your avr has for subs (such as with a minidsp/measurement mic/REW combo can provide). OTOH sometimes you just have to make up your mind than worry about all the possibilities and what may be relatively small differences among those possibilities. Customer service/warranty enters into it somewhat as well.

As to the last comment, true subwoofers do more than simply operate below 200hz.

Fundamentally, a subwoofer is designed to play low frequencies, low frequencies defined by some as sounds being below 200 HZ. That's what a subwoofer is. Now some subs are better than others at doing so, however all of them that are producing low frequencies are true subwoofers. We should be objective and dismiss some of the elitist jargon that some of typically use in this hobby.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Fundamentally, a subwoofer is designed to play low frequencies, low frequencies defined by some as sounds being below 200 HZ. That's what a subwoofer is. Now some subs are better than others at doing so, however all of them that are producing low frequencies are true subwoofers. We should be objective and dismiss some of the elitist jargon that some of typically use in this hobby.

Wow. I’m pretty sure you know what he meant.


That’s like saying “a Prius is a car so...”

 

[lovinthehd]

Fundamentally, a subwoofer is designed to play low frequencies, low frequencies defined by some as sounds being below 200 HZ. That's what a subwoofer is. Now some subs are better than others at doing so, however all of them that are producing low frequencies are true subwoofers. We should be objective and dismiss some of the elitist jargon that some of typically use in this hobby.

Elitist jargon? Good grief. IMO a true subwoofer operates down to the extent of human hearing, i.e. 20hz. If a sub operated only from 60-200hz it would be fairly meaningless IMO.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Elitist jargon? Good grief. IMO a true subwoofer operates down to the extent of human hearing, i.e. 20hz. If a sub operated only from 60-200hz it would be fairly meaningless IMO.

Exactly!!! He’s just being a pain.

 

[Reckel]

Fundamentally, a subwoofer is designed to play low frequencies, low frequencies defined by some being below 200 HZ. That's what a subwoofer is. Now some subs are better than others at doing so, however all of them that are producing low frequencies are true subwoofers.

The bics apparently go down to 22hz, I don’t believe that n I think they’re rolling off quick a lot higher. Bics are not in the same league as any of the companies we’ve discussed. They’re good on the high end but they ain’t digging deep