4 uls-15 mk2’s vs 4 pb-2000’s

[lovinthehd]

My bics are basically the size of the uls-15 mk2. Vtf2s are deeper, taller and I believe wider. Vtf3s are definitely bigger. There’s room but I’m debating if I want to spend 3400 vs probably 2400 for the vtf2s

Personally with that volume I'd go as big as I can afford/fit/want at one time rather than do it in steps. I run about 6500 cuft of space open to my area and run 3 x 18" sealed and a dual opposed 15" (at least until I finally go get some plywood for the dual opposed 18" build waiting in the wings). Why did I go sealed? Because I was/am new to woodworking and thought a smaller/manageable size (to move around, I'm gettin' old!) on the first build would be better as well avoiding the somewhat added complexity of vents. Someday I may change it up with different boxes but for my purposes these work well but I'm not going as loud as I did a few years back either.

 

[lovinthehd]

Exactly! I bought a pair of JL Audio e112's thinking they would be excellent subs. Unfortunately they had no way to adjust the FR to get it close enough in room for Audyssey to manage it.
The best value I have found in a sub was the PSA XS15se (I paid $625 or 650 each IIRC). However, the HSU ULS-15 seems to best value now that they have revised the ULS 15 and lowered the price and the XS15se has been discontinued and the current PSA has gone up in price).

Josh Ricci had the following comment about the PSA XS15se's frequency response:


That was a very accurate assessment, for me at least!

But understand that I am not saying the FR of the ported subs are bad. Most of the modern offerings discussed here have various adjustments including a sealed mode with the ports blocked, so I think he'll be able to tune them as needed.
I mentioned the ULS-15's because they were an original consideration and I believe (based on my experience with 4 sealed subs, they will be enough).

@Reckel , I think given the specific situation, it might be advisable to look at SVS subs. Hsu represents a better value, but I'm guessing the added cost of the SVS is not too outrageous. The reason to consider SVS is they will allow you a 45 day trial period and pay return shipping if they do not work for you.
What do you think, @shadyJ ? What SVS subs would you say are closest to the ULS-15, Hsu VTF-2, and the VTF-3?

Sorta why I was suggesting a fairly simple sub, i.e. one with no eq in the amp, provide your own. DIY!

 

[shadyJ]

What do you think, @shadyJ ? What SVS subs would you say are closest to the ULS-15, Hsu VTF-2, and the VTF-3?

SVS has somewhat different performance targets for their subs. Hsu subs tend to have stronger mid-bass but SVS subs tend to be stronger in deep bass. This is not to say that Hsu is weak in deep bass or that SVS is weak in mid-bass. Both manufacturers make well-rounded subwoofers. For the ULS-15 mk2, the closest SVS subs will be the SB-4000 and SB16-Ultra. The VTF-2 mk5 is more comparable to the SVS 2000 subs but doesn't do deep bass quite as well. The VTF-3 looks to have the deep bass comparable to the 2000s but mid-bass comparable to the 4000s or 16-Ultras. By the way, when I say deep bass I mean like below 30 Hz, mostly 25 Hz and lower. dB for dB, SVS subs tend to be a bit more expensive but it is more challenging and costly to cleanly reproduce deep bass. A larger cabinet is needed relative to driver size, at least for a ported subwoofer.

 

[Reckel]

SVS has somewhat different performance targets for their subs. Hsu subs tend to have stronger mid-bass but SVS subs tend to be stronger in deep bass. This is not to say that Hsu is weak in deep bass or that SVS is weak in mid-bass. Both manufacturers make well-rounded subwoofers. For the ULS-15 mk2, the closest SVS subs will be the SB-4000 and SB16-Ultra. The VTF-2 mk5 is more comparable to the SVS 2000 subs but doesn't do deep bass quite as well. The VTF-3 looks to have the deep bass comparable to the 2000s but mid-bass comparable to the 4000s or 16-Ultras. By the way, when I say deep bass I mean like below 30 Hz, mostly 25 Hz and lower. dB for dB, SVS subs tend to be a bit more expensive but it is more challenging and costly to cleanly reproduce deep bass. A larger cabinet is needed relative to driver size, at least for a ported subwoofer.

I figured the vtf3 would be a better sub than the pb2000

 

[Reckel]

I’ve actually talked to both companies and both were very easy to deal with, people were nice. I’ve only asked about the uls15mk2 when I called. I talked to Ed at svs and recommended 4 pb2000s, we didn’t really talk about going bigger expcet that it was just to much money for 4 and with getting 4 pb2000s it was better than just 2 of bigger sealed subs

 

[Reckel]

I’m sure you guys have seen the pics of my basement that are on here now. If you have seen them, judging by the size of my listening area n rest of basement, which subs?

 

[KEW]

I think, ultimately you may have to flip a coin or something.
FWIW, the SVS PB2000 is roughly the same size as the VTF-2 and the VTF-3 is substantially larger.
Just to try to cover all angles:
1) describe where/how you feel the BIC's fail you. Are they boomy? Never loud enough. Try putting them close to you just to see how that changes your perspective.
2) In what area are you located? I ask because if you happen to be down the street from Rythmik, for example, you could pick up the subs ... and return, if needed, so you don't have to pay shipping costs. Eliminating the shipping cost penalty for an in home trial/return (and just saving shipping costs, or getting a discount from SVS) is good reason to choose any of these brands over another. It is a long shot, but it would suck to later find out you missed out!

PS - Sorry you got hurt, I hope you are still able to move subs around (or have suitable labor/kids on-hand)

I find these are very handy things to have for moving subs (and anything else that is heavy) I originally bought mine to move a piano around (one under each side-only need to lift one end at a time), but once you have them, they are very useful. I leave them under my subs until I know I have determined the final resting place. I have not experienced any unwanted vibrations or sounds from having them under the sub.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/WEN-1000-lbs-Capacity-12-in-x-18-in-Hardwood-Furniture-Dolly-2-Pack-721218/304665740?cm_mmc=Shopping|G|Base|D22|22-8_LADDERS|Generic|PLA|71700000032189356|58700003830574769|92700037522295284&gclid=CjwKCAjwmdDeBRA8EiwAXlarFrz5GDUF1AEL9ySt0d98pZkJP0JZOp7iAvO-tOuJMmNqRqbNPPSlHhoCjlQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Another good option (especially on carpet) is these sliders. The nice thing about them is you can leave them permanently under the subs. They will work well enough for moving across the room to take the place of the above dolly's so you don't need both:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/WEN-1000-lbs-Capacity-12-in-x-18-in-Hardwood-Furniture-Dolly-2-Pack-721218/304665740?cm_mmc=Shopping|G|Base|D22|22-8_LADDERS|Generic|PLA|71700000032189356|58700003830574769|92700037522295284&gclid=CjwKCAjwmdDeBRA8EiwAXlarFrz5GDUF1AEL9ySt0d98pZkJP0JZOp7iAvO-tOuJMmNqRqbNPPSlHhoCjlQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I've also seen them in black (if you keep permanently under subs) just look around at Lowe's Harbor Freight, Wal-mart, etc.

 

[snakeeyes]

I would possibly consider three VTF3 to get the budget more manageable. You can use a sub wireless kit if wiring is an issue. SVS sells one.

 

[Reckel]

I think, ultimately you may have to flip a coin or something.
FWIW, the SVS PB2000 is roughly the same size as the VTF-2 and the VTF-3 is substantially larger.
Just to try to cover all angles:
1) describe where/how you feel the BIC's fail you. Are they boomy? Never loud enough. Try putting them close to you just to see how that changes your perspective.
2) In what area are you located? I ask because if you happen to be down the street from Rythmik, for example, you could pick up the subs ... and return, if needed, so you don't have to pay shipping costs. Eliminating the shipping cost penalty for an in home trial/return (and just saving shipping costs, or getting a discount from SVS) is good reason to choose any of these brands over another. It is a long shot, but it would suck to later find out you missed out!

PS - Sorry you got hurt, I hope you are still able to move subs around (or have suitable labor/kids on-hand)

I find these are very handy things to have for moving subs (and anything else that is heavy) I originally bought mine to move a piano around (one under each side-only need to lift one end at a time), but once you have them, they are very useful. I leave them under my subs until I know I have determined the final resting place. I have not experienced any unwanted vibrations or sounds from having them under the sub.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/WEN-1000-lbs-Capacity-12-in-x-18-in-Hardwood-Furniture-Dolly-2-Pack-721218/304665740?cm_mmc=Shopping|G|Base|D22|22-8_LADDERS|Generic|PLA|71700000032189356|58700003830574769|92700037522295284&gclid=CjwKCAjwmdDeBRA8EiwAXlarFrz5GDUF1AEL9ySt0d98pZkJP0JZOp7iAvO-tOuJMmNqRqbNPPSlHhoCjlQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Another good option (especially on carpet) is these sliders. The nice thing about them is you can leave them permanently under the subs. They will work well enough for moving across the room to take the place of the above dolly's so you don't need both:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/WEN-1000-lbs-Capacity-12-in-x-18-in-Hardwood-Furniture-Dolly-2-Pack-721218/304665740?cm_mmc=Shopping|G|Base|D22|22-8_LADDERS|Generic|PLA|71700000032189356|58700003830574769|92700037522295284&gclid=CjwKCAjwmdDeBRA8EiwAXlarFrz5GDUF1AEL9ySt0d98pZkJP0JZOp7iAvO-tOuJMmNqRqbNPPSlHhoCjlQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I've also seen them in black (if you keep permanently under subs) just look around at Lowe's Harbor Freight, Wal-mart, etc.

I’m in Toledo, Ohio so I’m not close to anything. I think the bics are good in the upper range but low range is lacking. They’re apparently able to go down to 22hz but I don’t think that is true. I can’t move them any closer to nor do I want to cuz they’d really be in the way, check those pics out n I think you’d agree. Any of the subs I’m considering would be a big upgrade in performance. The vtf2s are a better value for 4 compared to 4 Pb2000s and they’re comparable. If I were to go with the pb2000s, I might as well get the vtf3s for a couple hundred more. They’d be fairly close in price.

 

[Reckel]

I would possibly consider three VTF3 to get the budget more manageable. You can use a sub wireless kit if wiring is an issue. SVS sells one.

I wired for four so ultimately I’d prefer to have four

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hey man, what is your budget? (Sorry I cant recall and this thread is too much reading before coffee lol)

 

[Reckel]

Hey man, what is your budget? (Sorry I cant recall and this thread is too much reading before coffee lol)

3400 if I want

 

[Reckel]

3400 if I want

I should say, I could buy four vtf3s I want to go that route

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ok I found it. FWIW going back the start, you can get four PC2k’s for $3116.00 in the outlet store, and maybe an additional multi sub discount. Maybe...
Iirc you mentioned up to 3200? For me, I would never consider sealed subs. Below around 30hz it can take up to 4 to equal the output.
In my room which is bigger, and on concrete I would spend that money on a pair of Rythmik fv18’s. They will totally crush you at what looks like a seating distance of about 7-8’. I’m guessing here too, but in such an asymmetrical(albeit beautiful) room the benefits of 4 subs might not be that big a deal.
Fwiw there isn’t one sub in this conversation that would not be an upgrade to the bics. They’re priced where they are for a reason. And don’t think I’m knocking them, for what they are, and where they’re priced they’re pretty damn good.

I vote 2 fv18’s. Multi discount should have you close.
More coffee...

Edit: If it’s 4 your after, the vtf3’s make a lot of sense. Personally the pc’s look better to me so I might go there if chasing 4 subs.(I have pc pluses so I’m biased lol)

 

[Reckel]

Ok I found it. FWIW going back the start, you can get four PC2k’s for $3116.00 in the outlet store, and maybe an additional multi sub discount. Maybe...
Iirc you mentioned up to 3200? For me, I would never consider sealed subs. Below around 30hz it can take up to 4 to equal the output.
In my room which is bigger, and on concrete I would spend that money on a pair of Rythmik fv18’s. They will totally crush you at what looks like a seating distance of about 7-8’. I’m guessing here too, but in such an asymmetrical(albeit beautiful) room the benefits of 4 subs might not be that big a deal.
Fwiw there isn’t one sub in this conversation that would not be an upgrade to the bics. They’re priced where they are for a reason. And don’t think I’m knocking them, for what they are, and where they’re priced they’re pretty damn good.

I vote 2 fv18’s. Multi discount should have you close.
More coffee...

Edit: If it’s 4 your after, the vtf3’s make a lot of sense. Personally the pc’s look better to me so I might go there if chasing 4 subs.(I have pc pluses so I’m biased lol)

Yea idk wth to do know. They’re budget subs man so I agree with you, ur not hurting my feelings man. That’s what I could afford at the time after we moved into a new house 5yrs ago. I’m do for a substantial upgrade

 

[Reckel]

Yea idk wth to do know. They’re budget subs man so I agree with you, ur not hurting my feelings man. That’s what I could afford at the time after we moved into a new house 5yrs ago. I’m do for a substantial upgrade

That was supposed to be now not know

 

[Reckel]

That was supposed to be now not know

Yea that first row is about 8.5ft from tv and second row when sitting is 12.5ft I think

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yea idk wth to do know. They’re budget subs man so I agree with you, ur not hurting my feelings man. That’s what I could afford at the time after we moved into a new house 5yrs ago. I’m do for a substantial upgrade

I hear you man. Some of my earlier systems were Frankenstein’d up pretty good. We do what we can do right!? I’m also married for 18yrs so I understand the game too. For me waf is ALSO Will’s approval factor! But we’re pretty fair though.

I still vote 2 fv18’s. I’m not sure about pricing without digging but you should look at jtr as well.
Btw, great looking room. I would loooove a place to workout. And pour my favorite beer!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

What’s your avr?
FWIW, IMO if your going to put 4 subs in there(and it can even go a long ways for a single sub), you might consider a umik -1, REW and a minidsp. 3k is a lot of money to plunk down and still not know what kind of response you’re getting. Multi subs as a rule CAN go a long ways to help smooth out the room, but(I’ll be the bread crumbs in the butter here) it’s often overstated, and without much regard to proper setup. Different distances to the LP, and room boundaries require careful phase integration. imo, this is tricky. Being open to other parts of the house inherently allow for a smoother response, but the LP’s relationship to boundaries, and the sub’s relationship to boundaries mean that it’s not plunk n play.
More coffee...

 

[Reckel]

I hear you man. Some of my earlier systems were Frankenstein’d up pretty good. We do what we can do right!? I’m also married for 18yrs so I understand the game too. For me waf is ALSO Will’s approval factor! But we’re pretty fair though.

I still vote 2 fv18’s. I’m not sure about pricing without digging but you should look at jtr as well.
Btw, great looking room. I would loooove a place to workout. And pour my favorite beer!

Hey thx man about the room, is was nice to finally get it done. I had to cut open the wall where my window is to find the source of the leak. I found an 8ft tall crack that fame off the corner of my window. Had to have someone come out n dig by hand on the outside to fix it correctly. The morons before us used tar paper n then skimmed coated a thin layer of cement I guess over the crack which obviously wasn’t gonna hold. We were the lucky ones to have to deal with water. Yea dude I’ve been married 13yrs been together 15 so I totally get what ur saying. We are fair with each other but she’ll get irritated initially cuz everything I want isn’t really cheap but I spoil her often. I bought her a new awesome treadmill for Xmas yesterday that she doesn’t know about