Marantz SR7012 vs Denon X6400H

[Astray]

Sorry to bother everyone with another one of these threads but I've been doing a lot of research tonight and I haven't really found anything that completely settles the question for myself. I will preface this with saying that I did already purchase the X6400H in order to secure pricing of $1199 ($1299 from dealer and -$100 from ebay discount code) but I'm not set on keeping it if the SR7012 ($1050) would be a better fit.

My main concern comes down to whether the X6400H will actually be able to handle every single channel for a full 7.2.4 system without issue. My non-atmos speakers are all 6 ohm Infinity Reference Series speakers that I've been acquiring on clearance for very good prices. The room it'll be in is not very large and I'm not going to have run at loud volumes since my bedroom and neighbors would very easily be bothered by loud use. The room is about 20' x 14'.

From what I've read, there is going to be virtually no difference in sound quality even though people keep claiming the Marantz is better for music somehow. In researching Marantz vs Denon I found this statement so ubiquitous that I still can't completely believe it's false despite what I've read here on audioholics. However, if I'll actually need an external amp for the main 3 down the round then it makes sense to save the little bit of money and go for the SR7012 at this point regardless since I'll probably need a cooler and can get a nice stereo amp for HT Bypass down the road and just live with 7.2.2 in the meantime.

What are everyone's thoughts here?

 

[Bookmark]

My room is about the same size and my 6012, although only driving 4 height speakers is fine for everything I throw at it. It does Roku duties, stereo duties and heights. The 7012 is a step up from it with the 2nd bigger display under the flap, 10ish extra watts per channel and has Auro 3d, if that is important. Also unlike the 6400H or the lower models from Denon has the multi channel inputs.

The 6400 is a proper 11 channel, I believe, unlike the 7012 which only has 9 amps so would require an additional stereo amp to do the 7.1.4.

I would probably say stick with the 6400H, I don't think you would notice the difference in sound. Heat wise there is not really a problem if it has good clearance all round. Mine is in the open and maybe gets warm but not excessively so. Get fans if you are worried or putting in a cabinet.

 

[PENG]

Sorry to bother everyone with another one of these threads but I've been doing a lot of research tonight and I haven't really found anything that completely settles the question for myself. I will preface this with saying that I did already purchase the X6400H in order to secure pricing of $1199 ($1299 from dealer and -$100 from ebay discount code) but I'm not set on keeping it if the SR7012 ($1050) would be a better fit.

My main concern comes down to whether the X6400H will actually be able to handle every single channel for a full 7.2.4 system without issue. My non-atmos speakers are all 6 ohm Infinity Reference Series speakers that I've been acquiring on clearance for very good prices. The room it'll be in is not very large and I'm not going to have run at loud volumes since my bedroom and neighbors would very easily be bothered by loud use. The room is about 20' x 14'.

From what I've read, there is going to be virtually no difference in sound quality even though people keep claiming the Marantz is better for music somehow. In researching Marantz vs Denon I found this statement so ubiquitous that I still can't completely believe it's false despite what I've read here on audioholics. However, if I'll actually need an external amp for the main 3 down the round then it makes sense to save the little bit of money and go for the SR7012 at this point regardless since I'll probably need a cooler and can get a nice stereo amp for HT Bypass down the road and just live with 7.2.2 in the meantime.

What are everyone's thoughts here?

The SR7012 is virtually a AVR-X4400H plus 7.1 analog inputs and the HDAM modules as an added buffer stage at the preamp output.

The AVR-X6400H is a step up, one or two model years before, say the AVR-X6200H vs SR7010, the Denon was listed a few hundred dollars higher. With the hearsay spreading, D&M got smarter and started to raise the price up or the SR7011/SR7012 to match that of the AVR-X6300H/X6400H. I suspect the other reason could be that since Dr. Rich called them out of the HDAM design, they beefed it up using more discrete components so the cost might have gone up slightly too.

AVR-X6400H still has no 7.1 analog inputs, but it is made in Japan, and has a better/larger power supply.

To summarize:

Denon: Made in Japan (a positive, but subjective?),slightly larger power supply, symmetrical monolithic amp design, 11 channel power amps.

Marantz: Has 7.1 analog inputs (I have them but never use them, ymmv..),HDAM modules

I cannot hear the theoretical benefits of the HDAM, probably because as Dr. Rich pointed out back in 2014, that the upstream LSI ICs pretty much define the sound quality, the HDAM in the end wouldn't make any difference.

With the exception of the HDAM, from what I can see the AVR-X6400H is one level higher, as the X4400H is the real parallel to the SR7012.

 

[Thunder240]

I don’t disagree with anything the previous poster wrote.

However, the X6400H runs noticeably hotter than the SR7012. If you have good ventilation, this might not matter. If you don’t, that’s a good reason to go with the SR7012. (I just went through this same decision, I demoed both side by side, and I opted for the 7012 because it runs cooler.)

———
Edit: I should also say that I’m using external amplification, and I have my 7012 set to eco mode, which as I understand restricts power to the power amp stage but doesn’t affect the preamp stage.

If I were relying on the built-in power amp to power my mains, I probably would have opted for the X6400H and placed a quiet fan behind it in my rack.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Astray]

So just checking, the X6400H shouldn't have any issues running a full 7.2.4 setup without any extra amps? I remember reading that these AVRs can't actually power every single thing without running into some limitations trying to drive all of that.

 

[PENG]

However, the X6400H runs noticeably hotter than the SR7012. If you have good ventilation, this might not matter. If you don’t, that’s a good reason to go with the SR7012. (I just went through this same decision, I demoed both side by side, and I opted for the 7012 because it runs cooler.)

The Denon has two more amps to energized so it will produce a little more heat, but the Marantz has the extra HDAM modules so I don't quite understand why the Marantz would run cooler unless you had one of them set to ECO auto or off. With ECO off, my X4400H runs several degrees C lower, and with ECO in auto, it depends on the volume position. It is possible that the Denon is biased a little higher but I highly doubt that, as D&M has really standardized the two to a very large extent. As I mentioned, the X4400H and the SR7012 are practically identical except the HDAM modules and the 7.1 analog inputs. I know this from the schematics. I have no read the schematics of the X6400H though..

 

[PENG]

So just checking, the X6400H shouldn't have any issues running a full 7.2.4 setup without any extra amps? I remember reading that these AVRs can't actually power every single thing without running into some limitations trying to drive all of that.

It depends on your spl requirements, room dimensions, sitting distance, speaker sensitivity etc. Have you figure that out with the online peak spl calculator yet?

 

[Astray]

I have not. Was hoping a gave enough information in the first post that someone would be able to tell me. What's this calculator?

 

[Thunder240]

The Denon has two more amps to energized so it will produce a little more heat, but the Marantz has the extra HDAM modules so I don't quite understand why the Marantz would run cooler unless you had one of them set to ECO auto or off. With ECO off, my X4400H runs several degrees C lower, and with ECO in auto, it depends on the volume position. It is possible that the Denon is biased a little higher but I highly doubt that, as D&M has really standardized the two to a very large extent. As I mentioned, the X4400H and the SR7012 are practically identical except the HDAM modules and the 7.1 analog inputs. I know this from the schematics. I have no read the schematics of the X6400H though..

When I demoed the receivers, ECO mode was set to off on both receivers. I couldn’t say why the X6400H was hotter, only that it was, and enough so that it concerned me given my rack and ventilation.


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[Bookmark]

Here is a quick guestimate.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html (site link to try your actual figures)

 

[PENG]

I have not. Was hoping a gave enough information in the first post that someone would be able to tell me. What's this calculator?

Without know the exact model numbers of the Infinity speakers we'll be guessing. If you sit less than 12 ft from the L/R/C and listen at a few dB below reference level you will likely be fine with the X6400H.

 

[PENG]

When I demoed the receivers, ECO mode was set to off on both receivers. I couldn’t say why the X6400H was hotter, only that it was, and enough so that it concerned me given my rack and ventilation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just took a quick look of the schematics and was surprised to see that many of the pages applied to both the X6400H and SR8012 but not the SR7012. The SR8012 may run warmer too, I guess.. My X4400H runs just as warm or a touch warmer than my AV8801, but in ECO mode I could actually get away without the ACInfinity fan, but I leave it on anyway. Since we are both using the AVR as prepro, there is no reason not to have ECO on full time anyway.

 

[Astray]

The room is very narrow, I'll probably be about 10 or 11ft away from the front speakers, 6 or 7 feet from the side speakers, and I'm not sure about the rear speakers, probably somewhere in-between. Here's a picture of what the room looks like and how the couches and TV are placed.

These are the speakers (infinityspeakers dot com/reference-series-home/), though I'm still waiting for the subwoofer 12" to go on clearance around black friday. The speakers are completely overkill for the space but I'm planning for the future with the speakers as I don't want to buy any more for a very long time. I've so far collected 4 R162s, 2 R263s, and 1 RC263 so I'm only missing the subs at this point. I got them all for a steal price wise and I'm excited to hook them up, but they definitely need some subwoofer support as they're very tailored to mids and highs from everything I've read. I've heard nothing but good things concerning their performance too.

 

[PENG]

The room is very narrow, I'll probably be about 10 or 11ft away from the front speakers, 6 or 7 feet from the side speakers, and I'm not sure about the rear speakers, probably somewhere in-between. Here's a picture of what the room looks like and how the couches and TV are placed. View attachment 26349
These are the speakers (infinityspeakers dot com/reference-series-home/), though I'm still waiting for the subwoofer 12" to go on clearance around black friday. The speakers are completely overkill for the space but I'm planning for the future with the speakers as I don't want to buy any more for a very long time. I've so far collected 4 R162s, 2 R263s, and 1 RC263 so I'm only missing the subs at this point. I got them all for a steal price wise and I'm excited to hook them up, but they definitely need some subwoofer support as they're very tailored to mids and highs from everything I've read. I've heard nothing but good things concerning their performance too.

Thank you, now I (others may agree too..) can say for sure you will be fine with the X6400H, without the help of an external power amp, though you obviously have the option to do so should your future need arises.

You should still put a fan or two on top to cool the unit for better longevity. The unit has two build in fans but they won't turn on until the temperature get quite high, too high for comfort/longevity, in my opinion.

 

[Thunder240]

I suspect the other reason could be that since Dr. Rich called them out of the HDAM design, they beefed it up using more discrete components so the cost might have gone up slightly too.

Hey Peng, do you have a link you can send that describes recent changes made to the HDAM design?



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[PENG]

Hey Peng, do you have a link you can send that describes recent changes made to the HDAM design?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sure, I am going to do better than that for you, since you are a proud owner of the SR7012.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/marantz-av8802-processor-review/

Scroll down to the section on Dr. David Rich's analysis where he said:

"“The AV8802 is similar in design to the AV8801 in the analog path but a significant improvement has been made to the output circuitry. The output circuitry is now a pair of fully discrete, fully complementary, current mode opamps per channel. The first discrete opamp is wired as a unity gain buffer (10 transistors) and interfaces between the Renesas R2A15220FP LSI and the RCA output jack. The output also goes to the positive output pin of the XLR (pin 2). "

Be careful on the "correctness" thing. When Dr. Rich called them out on the AV8801, Marantz defended it vehemently, but they went ahead with the changes on the HDAM modules, except they kept the Renesas R2A15220FP LSI that in another article, Dr. Rich specifically mentioned was the real bottleneck. So much for marketing hypes!! I am not sure why Dr. Rich would not call them out about keeping the LSI chip this time.

Here's how he explained that bottleneck:

"A key takeaway: circuit quality in the direct mode (stereo or 7.1) is almost always invariant to AVR prices in the range of $400 to $2,000. As examples, the $250 Yamaha RX-V367 and Marantz AV8801 ($3000) use the same Renesas LSI chip (R2A15220FP). With the LSI analog chip in these products, the sound of the direct mode is relatively constant, although a more robust power supplies, addition a quality output buffer and enhanced DC blocking capacitor quality can make small differences."

Please also note that he's talking about the AV8801 (the one I just replaced with the AVR-X4400H) and the AV8802 so it is possible that not all the changes he described in the article apply to the AVRs. For example, even the AV8801's HDAM modules are on individual boards, mostly for noise improvements I guess.
I included the link here in case you are interested to see the version prior to the updates.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/marantz-av8801-11-2-surround-sound-processor-ssp/

"The AV8801 has a completely new ground design and the Marantz proprietary Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Module (HDAM) circuits are separated into 13 individual circuit boards, one for each output channel."



The AVR's modules are not mounted on individual boards, and even the AV8801 has much better SN ratio and Cross talk than the AVRs such as the SR7011, though the difference should not make an audible difference.

Audible or not though, I welcome any improvements to any parts of the unit, but I do question the "value", if the price goes up significantly for potentially no audible benefits.