Learning about subwoofer specs

[shadyJ]

It would indeed take quite the cabinet to have a problem even at 80Hz (~42" including space for cabling). OTOH, its helpful for a sub to maintain a reasonably smooth response a fair bit above its passband to ease integration with the other speakers.

This is why one of the approaches I advocate is to use subwoofers as bookshelf speakers stands, and to cross those subwoofers at a much higher frequency if possible. That can lessen Allison type effects, and also provide a lot more midbass headroom than regular bookshelf speakers are capable of. It negates any localization from subwoofers as well. It also saves the expense of having to get speaker stands.

 

[Steve81]

There are a few approaches to deal with it. Josh apparently was content to orient subs with the woofer facing the rear wall, which obviously mitigates the issue at the expense of looking stupid My setup features two subs with different distances to adjacent boundaries (in part because the FW18.0 is more compact than the 21.0LX),along with a relatively high XO, so it's straightforward to smooth things out.

 

[shadyJ]

There are a few approaches to deal with it. Josh apparently was content to orient subs with the woofer facing the rear wall, which obviously mitigates the issue at the expense of looking stupid My setup features two subs with different distances to adjacent boundaries (in part because the FW18.0 is more compact than the 21.0LX),along with a relatively high XO, so it's straightforward to smooth things out.

You will look for any chance to brag about your Funk subs, won't you?

 

[Steve81]

You will look for any chance to brag about your Funk subs, won't you?

Always

 

[ryanosaur]

LMAO!
Have you guys stumbled on the spreadsheet discussed on this Janszen blog by chance? I was reading about Allison effect... hoping that it meant women named Allison would start showing up at my door after I got my subs (don't tell the Lady i said that!) Anyway, the link doesn't work, but was curious about it.

Regardless, Thank you all for helping me out! I know I'll be around with more questions, probably sooner than later. Cheers!

 

[Steve81]

Have you guys stumbled on the spreadsheet discussed on this Janszen blog by chance?

Can't say that I have, though I'm not sure it requires a spreadsheet per se to try out their advice.

 

[ryanosaur]

Can't say that I have, though I'm not sure it requires a spreadsheet per se to try out their advice.

no, definitely not. its more this strange fascination i have with excel spreadsheets, and how they are set up.

 

[Swerd]

@ryanosaur – I just read your thread for the first time. What Darenwh said in his post is the answer to your original question. All the other posts about various features of sub woofers are true, but Darenwh's answer seems to have been ignored.

The most likely reason not to bother with the sensitivity when referring to modern subs is that they are all powered by their own amplifier.

Sub woofers (most of them) come with a built-in amplifier. Therefore manufacturers try to rate them by their maximum SPL using the built-in amp. Most loudspeakers are passive – they come with no amp – you have to supply that. Therefore they rate them by their sensitivity, how loud do they get when driven by 1 watt (or 2.83 volts) when a test microphone is 1 meter away from the speaker. Sensitivity and maximum SPL are two different things.

If you are looking to buy new loudspeakers (did I read that somewhere?),don't confuse the matter with sub woofers. They really are separate matters. With loudspeakers, the real issue is how does their mid range sound. Realistic sounding and widely dispersed mid range are all important. A loudspeaker's bass can always be supplemented by a sub woofer.

What loudspeakers are you thinking about? Do you have a separate thread about this? If not, think about starting one. Anyone who likes the Dead, deserves the best sounding speakers he can afford.

Also, don't confuse a sub woofer's size with performance. Any sub woofer, large or small, will perform quite differently in rooms, depending on the room dimensions as well as the location of the sub woofer and listeners. It's complex to describe, but has to do with sound waves coming directly from the sub and how they interact (add or cancel) with reflections coming from walls, ceiling and floor. AH has a good article that deals with this on a practical level. It's title is Subwoofer Placement Guide: Finding the Optimal Location for Best Sound. Also see Crawling For Bass – Subwoofer Placement Tips.

 

[ryanosaur]

All the other posts about various features of sub woofers are true, but Darenwh's answer seems to have been ignored.

Not ignored. I got it. And it totally makes sense. If I recall correctly, I think I asked if Sub SPL is an "equivalent" kind of spec.
Regardless, I have posted about speakers... just not directly.
My speaker search has me favoring Monitor Audio Silver series: 500s, C350, and either 2 pair 100s for surrounds, or pair ea.100s and FXs. I've looked at a lot. Gonna be auditioning here in a couple weeks as my budget is nearing completion. Also considering Martin Logan, Revel, gonna look at Kef Qs, and really just about anything else for comparison. Intrigued by Philharmonics, but they might not be the right match for me. Might swing through a place in Utah and see what he has, as I have to travel to visit family soon too. *Shrugs
At the end of the day, I mentioned to Peng, somewhere along the line, that in reading reviews, the Monitor Silvers are pretty much the only speakers I found that had nothing negative said about them. The one criticism I saw was that the FX didn't do enough to stand out beside its siblings. And as I said to Peng, if that's the worst of it, then these are speakers I want to hear! Everything else had a ding here or there, and I know that doesn't mean they aren't good or even great, but it still piques my curiosity.
For subs... I agree... it isn't just about size. But c'mon, that Rythmik FV25 is somethin' else! But seriously, I'm still strongly considering the Outlaw X13, and the new contender Rythmik FV18. Though both are over budget for duals, they both offer the extension I desire (16Hz for pipe organ) and come very highly rated. If price was truly no concern I might go PB16 Ultras. Or 2 FV25s?

Subwoofer Placement Guide: Finding the Optimal Location for Best Sound. Also see Crawling For Bass – Subwoofer Placement Tip

Been all over those!
Thanks Swerd, would love to hear any further input you have!!!

Best,
R

 

[Swerd]

Not ignored. I got it. And it totally makes sense.

Good. Most of the rest of this thread has gone into great detail about subs, and I defer to what others say. Although I like bass, I would call myself a speaker guy, not a sub woofer guy.

My speaker search has me favoring Monitor Audio Silver series: 500s, C350, and either 2 pair 100s for surrounds, or pair ea.100s and FXs. I've looked at a lot. Gonna be auditioning here in a couple weeks as my budget is nearing completion. Also considering Martin Logan, Revel, gonna look at Kef Qs, and really just about anything else for comparison. Intrigued by Philharmonics, but they might not be the right match for me. Might swing through a place in Utah and see what he has, as I have to travel to visit family soon too. *Shrugs

Although it's been a while since I heard Monitor Audio speakers, I remember liking them. In 2004, I heard MA Silver series tower speakers, when my brother was doing some serious speaker shopping. I don't remember the model, and MA has probably changed it's line several times since then anyway, but I thought they sounded good. (Ultimately, he bought some Vandersteen speakers.)

The 500 towers and C350 center speaker look very good on paper. When you go to hear them, be sure to bring some recorded music that you are very familiar with.

Just a thought… For rear channel speakers in a 5 or 7 channel system, I've found that deep bass performance is not required. You could save some cash and go for smaller rear channel speakers, such as the MA Silver 50s. They might be easier to place. The 100s have an 8" woofer combined with a 1" tweeter. It's been my experience that in 2-way speakers, 8" woofers can't go high enough to combine well with a 1" dome tweeter. MA says the 100's crossover frequency is 2.8 kHz. At that frequency, 8" drivers tend to beam, with much less off-axis sound. Rear channel sounds in movies & TV tend to be all about ambiance, so widely dispersed sound is important. Without hearing them, I'd guess they would sound alright when you listen directly on-axis, but off-axis (roughly 30° or more) they'll get much quieter than the tweeter. The effect leaves a 'hole in the middle' of their sound. I'd guess the 50s, with 5¼" mid woofers, might work better for you. The 500 towers and C350 center speakers both are 3-ways, combining 8" woofers with a 4" mid range driver. So they will have much better off-axis dispersion than the 100.

Of the others, Revel and Kef have excellent reputations. Will you be able to hear them too? I can't say anything about Martin Logan.

 

[ryanosaur]

When you go to hear them, be sure to bring some recorded music that you are very familiar with.

Been workin on that!

For me, It's primarily about the MA's and this random side trip. Especially if the MA's leave me feeling a little ho-hum. We'lll see. I got the budget, but I'm not so insane that I'm just gonna blow it for the hell of it! I joked that I might just order up the Emotiva T2, C2, B1, E2 combination, save myself a lot of heartache and cash, and get some monster subs! Besides if I don't like 'em, I can always send them back off.

One of the side notes I had seen is that the Silver 50 is, perhaps lackluster is harsh, but compared to the 100's, they're perhaps a little shy (unlike the only comments I saw about the FX which were 'uninspired' to paraphrase). Not to say I'm not considering them (50's), but I find it's easier to plan big and go lean, than to plan lean and have to go big. And I've already spec'd out mounting hardware to handle up to 30#+.

 

[shadyJ]

Not ignored. I got it. And it totally makes sense. If I recall correctly, I think I asked if Sub SPL is an "equivalent" kind of spec.
Regardless, I have posted about speakers... just not directly.
My speaker search has me favoring Monitor Audio Silver series: 500s, C350, and either 2 pair 100s for surrounds, or pair ea.100s and FXs. I've looked at a lot. Gonna be auditioning here in a couple weeks as my budget is nearing completion. Also considering Martin Logan, Revel, gonna look at Kef Qs, and really just about anything else for comparison. Intrigued by Philharmonics, but they might not be the right match for me. Might swing through a place in Utah and see what he has, as I have to travel to visit family soon too. *Shrugs
At the end of the day, I mentioned to Peng, somewhere along the line, that in reading reviews, the Monitor Silvers are pretty much the only speakers I found that had nothing negative said about them. The one criticism I saw was that the FX didn't do enough to stand out beside its siblings. And as I said to Peng, if that's the worst of it, then these are speakers I want to hear! Everything else had a ding here or there, and I know that doesn't mean they aren't good or even great, but it still piques my curiosity.
For subs... I agree... it isn't just about size. But c'mon, that Rythmik FV25 is somethin' else! But seriously, I'm still strongly considering the Outlaw X13, and the new contender Rythmik FV18. Though both are over budget for duals, they both offer the extension I desire (16Hz for pipe organ) and come very highly rated. If price was truly no concern I might go PB16 Ultras. Or 2 FV25s?

Been all over those!
Thanks Swerd, would love to hear any further input you have!!!

Best,
R

Monitor Audio is a fine speaker manufacturer, and I would guess that the Silver speakers are good, but just because no one ever said anything bad about them does not mean they are the perfect speaker. All audio engineering is a matter of trade-offs.

 

[ryanosaur]

Monitor Audio is a fine speaker manufacturer, and I would guess that the Silver speakers are good, but just because no one ever said anything bad about them does not mean they are the perfect speaker. All audio engineering is a matter of trade-offs.

Word! and, True that, Dawg! Like I said: I want to hear them... then I'll decide.

 

[ryanosaur]

Monitor Audio is a fine speaker manufacturer, and I would guess that the Silver speakers are good, but just because no one ever said anything bad about them does not mean they are the perfect speaker. All audio engineering is a matter of trade-offs.

By the way, Shady, I do want to thank you for your input. I really appreciate it... You and Steve81 both have shared a lot with me here on this thread. Thank you and Cheers! And to everyone else.