Help with Receiver or system upgrade

[Sax-Fan]

It has been ages since I last shopped for home theater equipment and my receiver in particular is very long in the tooth (but still sounds great).

I have a 5.1 system that I purchased going on (gulp!) 18 years ago comprised of: (1) a pair of B&W CDM 1NT bookshelf speakers being used as front channels, (2) a B&W CC6 S2 center channel, (3) two B&W LS1s (small satellite type speakers) mounted on the rear side walls for surrounds and (4) a Rel Strata III subwoofer. My receiver is a Rotel RSX-965.

The system is in a small Den probably about 10' x 11' but there is a hall about 3-4 feet wide leading into it and that side of the room is almost completely open going into the living room. Front speakers are, by necessity on a wall that is about 7' long, so separation is not great. I have a Samsung plasma TV that I may upgrade to 4K at some point, but no plans to do so immediately. Anyway, I just give you all this info as general background.

My biggest issue is that due to its age, the receiver has no HDMI inputs or switching. Additionally, I have some problems getting clear dialogue at times (not sure if it is the speaker, receiver or the mixes) and the subwoofer is probably overkill size-wise for the room, although it is tucked away in the corner, so not really a problem. Honestly, everything still functions well, so despite the age and inconveniences, I could probably continue to use everything.

That said, I am thinking it is probably long overdue to replace the receiver at a minimum. I was wondering if you have suggestions for what will go well with the rest of the system and/or if you think it might make sense to upgrade anything else (I could, for example, repurpose the front speakers in another room and use it for stereo only) and buy a new speaker system.

The receivers I have been looking at, or which have been suggested to me are the Marantz Sr 6012 (which I can get at a very good price-- about the same as the new 5013 - because it is being replaced - but it seems really intended for a much larger system), the Anthem MRX 520 (downside is a lack of Dolby Atmos and DTS:X ability, should I ever decide to go that route), Cambridge Audio CXR 120 and the NAD T 758 V3. The Anthem at about $1400 is really at the top of the range price wise and I wonder whether I have to spend anywhere close to that to get a good receiver. On the other hand, I don't want to have to take a step backwards from the Rotel in sound quality.

Any thoughts, suggestions or other input on the above, and particularly with respect to receiver possibilities (including those I mentioned above) would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[everettT]

I say completely overhaul . You can get a good AVR fairly inexpensive, especially if you pick up a bstock from accessories4less.com. grabbing a Denon x3400 for 499, then you could upgrade the sub or the front 3. Don't over spend on electronics, just get one with the features you want and is able to drive your speakers without clipping.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Additionally, I have some problems getting clear dialogue at times (not sure if it is the speaker, receiver or the mixes) ....

Welcome to AH.
I would think that if the dialogue is clear some of the time, the other times must be the program.

 

[lovinthehd]

I doubt the avrs you list (other than the Marantz) have any particular sound quality advantages over the mainstream offerings like Denon, Marantz or Yamaha, but likely do have a price penalty or a feature shortage. I'd pick one for price/features/connectivity desired. The Denon 3400 suggested would be a good choice. Looked at the Rotel, not sure why you say it doesn't have switching capabilities?

Your sub I'd say is, if anything, a bit small for that size volume (unless your den were sealed). I'd not get a new Rel, but rather look at Hsu, Rythmik, SVS or Power Sound Audio (or if you can/want to spend more, JTR, Seaton, Deep Sea or Funk). However, if you like the performance of the speakers/sub, then changing them is for what reason?

Dialog varies with mix, many do complain about dialog levels, particularly at lower volume levels, with some mixes.

 

[Sax-Fan]

Thank you all for the responses, welcome and information.

I doubt the avrs you list (other than the Marantz) have any particular sound quality advantages over the mainstream offerings like Denon, Marantz or Yamaha, but likely do have a price penalty or a feature shortage. I'd pick one for price/features/connectivity desired. The Denon 3400 suggested would be a good choice. Looked at the Rotel, not sure why you say it doesn't have switching capabilities? .

I know Denon and Marantz are made by the same company. Is there any reason to think that a Marantz with similar features would have any sound quality advantage over a Denon? Although I use the system more for watching movies, 2 channel music is very important to me as well. The Denon mentioned looks great in terms of feature set and price, but as I mentioned, I prefer not to take a step down in quality from what I own. If I am not likely to hear a difference or if it may actually sound better, then I would absolutiely like to save the money

And you are right, the Rotel does have switching capability. However it does not have any HDMI inputs. I can (and have been ) getting around this by using other connections, but it would be helpful to have more recent connection options. At one point I had thought of purchasing an Apple TV, but it only has connection by HDMI and my TV doesn't seem capable of passing audio from an HDMI connected device to my receiver. I ultimately purchased a Roku with an optical out -- the newer ones I believe got rid of that option.

Your sub I'd say is, if anything, a bit small for that size volume (unless your den were sealed). I'd not get a new Rel, but rather look at Hsu, Rythmik, SVS or Power Sound Audio (or if you can/want to spend more, JTR, Seaton, Deep Sea or Funk). However, if you like the performance of the speakers/sub, then changing them is for what reason?

.
Interesting input on the sub. I have had difficulty tuning the sub for the space (I admit it seems unnecessarily complicated) and, particularly with music, it can get rather boomy. I'm curious why you don't suggest a Rel if I were to replace it?

But you make a very good point about replacing just for the sake of it. I honestly wasn't sure if there was anything to be gained from a wholesale change. I imagine speaker and sub technology hasn't changed too much over the years. I suspect the room is more of a limiting factor than anything else. Perhaps decent room correction capability on the receiver would be helpful to me.

Dialog varies with mix, many do complain about dialog levels, particularly at lower volume levels, with some mixes.

Good to know. Trying to hear the dialogue in some movies can be very frustrating indeed.

 

[PENG]

It has been ages since I last shopped for home theater equipment and my receiver in particular is very long in the tooth (but still sounds great).

I have a 5.1 system that I purchased going on (gulp!) 18 years ago comprised of: (1) a pair of B&W CDM 1NT bookshelf speakers being used as front channels, (2) a B&W CC6 S2 center channel, (3) two B&W LS1s (small satellite type speakers) mounted on the rear side walls for surrounds and (4) a Rel Strata III subwoofer. My receiver is a Rotel RSX-965.

The system is in a small Den probably about 10' x 11' but there is a hall about 3-4 feet wide leading into it and that side of the room is almost completely open going into the living room. Front speakers are, by necessity on a wall that is about 7' long, so separation is not great. I have a Samsung plasma TV that I may upgrade to 4K at some point, but no plans to do so immediately. Anyway, I just give you all this info as general background.

My biggest issue is that due to its age, the receiver has no HDMI inputs or switching. Additionally, I have some problems getting clear dialogue at times (not sure if it is the speaker, receiver or the mixes) and the subwoofer is probably overkill size-wise for the room, although it is tucked away in the corner, so not really a problem. Honestly, everything still functions well, so despite the age and inconveniences, I could probably continue to use everything.

That said, I am thinking it is probably long overdue to replace the receiver at a minimum. I was wondering if you have suggestions for what will go well with the rest of the system and/or if you think it might make sense to upgrade anything else (I could, for example, repurpose the front speakers in another room and use it for stereo only) and buy a new speaker system.

The receivers I have been looking at, or which have been suggested to me are the Marantz Sr 6012 (which I can get at a very good price-- about the same as the new 5013 - because it is being replaced - but it seems really intended for a much larger system),the Anthem MRX 520 (downside is a lack of Dolby Atmos and DTS:X ability, should I ever decide to go that route),Cambridge Audio CXR 120 and the NAD T 758 V3. The Anthem at about $1400 is really at the top of the range price wise and I wonder whether I have to spend anywhere close to that to get a good receiver. On the other hand, I don't want to have to take a step backwards from the Rotel in sound quality.

Any thoughts, suggestions or other input on the above, and particularly with respect to receiver possibilities (including those I mentioned above) would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

Going from the RSX-965 to any of the model you mentioned will not be a step backward in sound quality.

Best deals right now on Amazon.com and/or Crutchfield.com are:
AVR-X4400H, SR7012 (Crutchfield),or SR6012, AVR-X3400H

I don't see a reason to pay $300 more for the SR7012, unless you need 7.1 analog inputs. I have them in all but one of my AVR/AVP and never found a need to use them. You speakers can handle up to 120 W into 8 ohms unclipped so any of those AVR should be a good match.

If you are in the UK and if you only 7 channels, the CXR120 is good too. Anthem, NAD and Rotel don't have the volume advantage so you will pay more for less but worth it if you believe they sound "better". If you look at the available historic bench test results D&M models perform better than comparable anthem and NAD models in terms of distortions, power output, SN ratio etc., at least most of the time.

 

[Sax-Fan]

Going from the RSX-965 to any of the model you mentioned will not be a step backward in sound quality.

Best deals right now on Amazon.com and/or Crutchfield.com are:
AVR-X4400H, SR7012 (Crutchfield),or SR6012, AVR-X3400H

I don't see a reason to pay $300 more for the SR7012, unless you need 7.1 analog inputs. I have them in all but one of my AVR/AVP and never found a need to use them. You speakers can handle up to 120 W into 8 ohms unclipped so any of those AVR should be a good match.

If you are in the UK and if you only 7 channels, the CXR120 is good too. Anthem, NAD and Rotel don't have the volume advantage so you will pay more for less but worth it if you believe they sound "better". If you look at the available historic bench test results D&M models perform better than comparable anthem and NAD models in terms of distortions, power output, SN ratio etc., at least most of the time.

That's helpful. Thanks. I listened to the successor SR5013 (successor to the 5012) and it sounded good, so I have to believe the 6012 will sound similar. I assume the SR6012 will have somewhat of an edge for 2 channel listening over the AVR-X3400H or 4400H? I listen to a fair amount of jazz and I am leaning toward that at the moment -- although I probably don't need the extra channels vs the X3400H.

 

[PENG]

That's helpful. Thanks. I listened to the successor SR5013 (successor to the 5012) and it sounded good, so I have to believe the 6012 will sound similar. I assume the SR6012 will have somewhat of an edge for 2 channel listening over the AVR-X3400H or 4400H? I listen to a fair amount of jazz and I am leaning toward that at the moment -- although I probably don't need the extra channels vs the X3400H.

Don't believe in hearsay. The avrx4400h has the same audio specs as the sr7012 the 6012 is a more like the x3400h, such as the higher distortion but has 2 more channels. They all sound the same to me, all else being equal.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thought @PENG might post his recent thread on the Marantz vs Denon quality thing but didn't, so I will https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/denon-vs-marantz-facts-marketing-hypes-best-available-deals-what-else.112571/

Rel subs just don't impress me for their cost (at least not in the US), I think the sub companies I listed are putting out excellent product for the price. Audyssey does do a nice job in integrating subs particularly I think. OTOH if the Rel meets your needs why change?

 

[Sax-Fan]

Thought @PENG might post his recent thread on the Marantz vs Denon quality thing but didn't, so I will

Rel subs just don't impress me for their cost (at least not in the US), I think the sub companies I listed are putting out excellent product for the price. Audyssey does do a nice job in integrating subs particularly I think. OTOH if the Rel meets your needs why change?

Thanks for that.

Honestly, the Rel was the one part of the system I felt like I overpaid for when I bought it, but I've had it for about 18 years, so I guess I got my money's worth out of it It is, however, a pain to set up and I always wondered if I was getting the best out of it. Do you know if I would be able to use Audyssey to help integrate it into my system? The sub is a Strata III (I tried to post an image, but I evidently don't have enough points)

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for that.

Honestly, the Rel was the one part of the system I felt like I overpaid for when I bought it, but I've had it for about 18 years, so I guess I got my money's worth out of it It is, however, a pain to set up and I always wondered if I was getting the best out of it. Do you know if I would be able to use Audyssey to help integrate it into my system? The sub is a Strata III (I tried to post an image, but I evidently don't have enough points)

Depends if you do the Rel "blending" thing or not that Rel encourages. Audyssey XT32 does a good job with subs IMO, and I don't see why it wouldn't work with such....

 

[Sax-Fan]

Depends if you do the Rel "blending" thing or not that Rel encourages. Audyssey XT32 does a good job with subs IMO, and I don't see why it wouldn't work with such....

Thank you. I found an article from Rel that explains the same.

Setup Rel with Room Correction

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you. I found an article from Rel that explains the same.

Setup Rel with Room Correction

Not what I'd do...

 

[Sax-Fan]

Not what I'd do...

I'll have to check back after I finally get around to buying a new receiver. I'm no technophobe, but I'm not sure why everything needs to be so complicated either

 

[lovinthehd]

It's not that complicated. Will depend somewhat on what you end up with as well as your preferences and uses....

 

[Sax-Fan]

Going from the RSX-965 to any of the model you mentioned will not be a step backward in sound quality.

Best deals right now on Amazon.com and/or Crutchfield.com are:
AVR-X4400H, SR7012 (Crutchfield),or SR6012, AVR-X3400H

I checked out a few receivers at Best Buy and then at a couple of local AV shops. Salespeople were all very helpful, but I'm not sure how knowledgable (especially at BB) and all have different opinions. These are the general opinions I received (would love to hear thoughts).

(1) AV salesperson 1: Strongly recommended going for Anthem Receiver over Marantz or Denon coming from a Rotel. Felt Marantz is somewhat better than Denon, but that build and sound quality is not comparable to an Anthem and that Anthem room correction is better. Said Anthem would last longer and sound better and felt I would be disappointed if moving from an old Rotel to a more "mainstream" AVR like Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, etc. Did not have an Anthem on floor (or a Marantz or Denon) to compare.

(2) BB salesperson gave party line that Marantz is more for music and generally better/warmer sounding than Denon at similar level, but that both were good. Felt no benefit in sound to go from X34000H to X4400H or SR5012 (or 13) to SR 6012 (or 13). I couldn't hear any difference in the store, but the salesperson said none of the receivers would sound like they would sound in my home and that it was very difficult to compare in the store as they were going through all kinds of splitters, etc.

(3) AV salesperson 2 liked Marantz more than Denon and Anthem better than both (particularly due to room correction and possible benefit given my room),but said he wasn't really even sure that I would notice much of a sound difference between receivers, including my current Rotel. He said he would love to sell me a receiver, but wasn't sure it would be worth it if I wasn't going to a 4K television yet. He thought that the upgrade to Lossless Dolby TrueHD sound (or DTS Master Audio) didn't always make much difference and was a bit overemphasized by some. The biggest benefit he believed might be the move to something that has decent room correction. I listened to the Anthem and it sounded great in their controlled environment with different speakers than mine, but they did not have Marantz or Denon to compare it to.

Now I'm even more confused. My Rotel still sounds good to me and if the only real benefit I am going to get at the moment from an upgrade is HDMI switching (which is really just a convenience) ,I might as well save the $$ and wait until the current receiver stops working as new things will always be coming out.

Any thoughts about the info/opinions I received?

Edited for typos.

 

[lovinthehd]

BB recommendations may be more tuned to commission/profit margin. The comment that makes sense that until you hook your own speakers up and use each unit the differences are moot as your room is a much greater influence than any you can tell in the store. The Marantz/Denon differences are probably no more than those between boutique brands like Rotel or Anthem but will be more reqsonably priced with Marantz/Denon. ARC and AudysseyXT32 are both good REQ options.

To just use your current gear I wonder if you could just add an hdmi switch especially as you don't need 4k or Atmos at the moment? Then maybe direct the money towards speakers instead where the real sound differences lay?

 

[Sax-Fan]

BB recommendations may be more tuned to commission/profit margin. The comment that makes sense that until you hook your own speakers up and use each unit the differences are moot as your room is a much greater influence than any you can tell in the store. The Marantz/Denon differences are probably no more than those between boutique brands like Rotel or Anthem but will be more reqsonably priced with Marantz/Denon. ARC and AudysseyXT32 are both good REQ options.

To just use your current gear I wonder if you could just add an hdmi switch especially as you don't need 4k or Atmos at the moment? Then maybe direct the money towards speakers instead where the real sound differences lay?

I certainly could add an HDMI switch. I actually am not even sure it is needed at the moment as everything is hooked up through the HDMI inputs on the TV and various optical and/or digital coaxial inputs on the receiver. I guess I had thought that going from compressed Dolby Digital to a form of lossless audio might be a revelation. But if I'm honest, I often have difficulty telling the difference between high quality/bit rate mp3s and lossless (all other things being equal). I do think some room correction help might be a big benefit, but I guess I wouldn't know without testing.

I am fairly happy with my front main speakers and the surrounds are wall mounted and I think are sufficient for their purpose. I could perhaps upgrade the center channel to see if I would get clearer dialogue. I would add a second sub, but I don't really have space for it. Better sub integration would certainly help - I suspect the room correction would benefit me there again.

 

[lovinthehd]

I certainly could add an HDMI switch. I actually am not even sure it is needed at the moment as everything is hooked up through the HDMI inputs on the TV and various optical and/or digital coaxial inputs on the receiver. I guess I had thought that going from compressed Dolby Digital to a form of lossless audio might be a revelation. But if I'm honest, I often have difficulty telling the difference between high quality/bit rate mp3s and lossless (all other things being equal). I do think some room correction help might be a big benefit, but I guess I wouldn't know without testing.

I am fairly happy with my front main speakers and the surrounds are wall mounted and I think are sufficient for their purpose. I could perhaps upgrade the center channel to see if I would get clearer dialogue. I would add a second sub, but I don't really have space for it. Better sub integration would certainly help - I suspect the room correction would benefit me there again.

As to the difference between a standard lossy Dolby Digital or DTS soundtrack compared to the lossless Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HDMA soundtracks the word I think of the difference is subtle. Sounds like you just have a mild case of upgraditis

 

[Sax-Fan]

As to the difference between a standard lossy Dolby Digital or DTS soundtrack compared to the lossless Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HDMA soundtracks the word I think of the difference is subtle. Sounds like you just have a mild case of upgraditis

That's probably right. I figured certainly after 18 years it was necessary to upgrade. Seems like after all the research I may have saved myself some money (in the short term anyway)