Too much rain, humidity, and then came the hurricane

[Swerd]

I live on the east coast in Maryland, near Washington, DC. In the last 4 weeks, we've had an excess of heat, high humidity, rain, and overcast skies. Little or no sunshine. It's been enough to make me feel like crawling out of my skin. In the past week or so, there's been less heat (temperatures in the upper 70s or low 80s),but such high humidity that running AC has been a necessity, not an option. In my house, I have had to set the thermostat lower than usual, down to 72°, just to keep the humidity down. Today brought about ½" of rain and a high of a somewhat cool 78°. Tomorrow, more rain and high humidity is forecast, but Wednesday the end may be in sight. It should clear and the humidity should drop to more normal levels for late summer.

Humidity can make me feel miserable, so I'm ranting about it here. This weather has been caused by some unusual jet stream wind patterns that led to 4 weeks worth of hot humid air moving from the Gulf of Mexico up the east coast of the US. Instead of the usual air flow from the west or northwest, there was 4 weeks of airflow from southwest to northeast. It created a standing low pressure front that kept most of east coast humid and stagnant. Only mosquitoes, ducks, and mold could like this weather. No drought here.

And then there was Hurricane Florence. Fortunately, Maryland & Virginia avoided it, until all the rain of today and tomorrow. But southeastern North Carolina got it bad. Because that hurricane was so slow moving (also caused by that motionless low pressure front due to the weird jet stream patterns),a very large area of NC got deluged by up to 30" of rain !

I saw a graphic in the Washington Post that mapped the rainfall over the period of Sept 12-17. See it here https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/hurricane-florence-hits-carolina-coast/?utm_term=.10a9fed09f02. The Wilmington, NC region is presently cut-off by flooded roads. Only airplanes and helicopters can get in.

It's enough to make me quit my complaining about the weather. I was lucky enough to avoid all but the fringes of that hurricane. And my power works too. Its bad enough to endure a hurricane, losing power and AC for a week or more. But to be forced out of your home by flooding with a real possibility of loosing it permanently, is much worse. Now NC understands what New Orleans and Puerto Rico endured. It will take major effort, money and time to recover from this hurricane.

 

[Drunkpenguin]

Humidity sucks. I live in a normally dry area but its been a bad summer here too. My ac unit just poors water out of it instead of the usual drip. Im looking forward to winter. The worst part about these huricanes is people are about to get raped by their insurance companies.

 

[TechHDS]

Fellows, I feel for ya not to mention the poor people in North and South Carolina what they are going through right now. My first experience of hurricane storms was 64, 65, Hurricane Betsy and Hilda. Having been through so many of them living in the Deep South of Louisiana they still scared the sh&t out of me. I lost everything back in 2005 from Katrina, Rita storms. Today I still feel am blessed cause I didn’t lose my life or someone I loved either.


Mike

 

[Swerd]

Fellows, I feel for ya not to mention the poor people in North and South Carolina what they are going through right now. My first experience of hurricane storms was 64, 65, Hurricane Betsy and Hilda. Having been through so many of them living in the Deep South of Louisiana they still scared the sh&t out of me. I lost everything back in 2005 from Katrina, Rita storms. Today I still feel am blessed cause I didn’t lose my life or someone I loved either.

Mike

Was it you who worked on Gulf oil rigs? I hope you never rode out a hurricane out on the Gulf.

 

[highfigh]

Humidity sucks. I live in a normally dry area but its been a bad summer here too. My ac unit just poors water out of it instead of the usual drip. Im looking forward to winter. The worst part about these huricanes is people are about to get raped by their insurance companies.

We all pay for these disasters. It's part of the insurance plan- charge people for coverage and find ways to deny paying them for their losses, then build fancy new headquarters and put ads on TV to show that you care.

You may think I'm not a fan of insurance companies. You're right. It's gambling. We're betting that we'll have a loss and they're betting that we won't, but the deck is stacked in their favor because they can deny coverage on a technicality.

 

[TechHDS]

Mike

Was it you who worked on Gulf oil rigs? I hope you never rode out a hurricane out on the Gulf.

Swerd, I worked 15 years in the oilfield, and 80% of my work was in the Gulf of Mexico. One thing I can say about the oil and gas Industry as soon as a tropical depression hits the Gulf they evacuate the Gulf. But as you would expect I have rode out some really nasty storms. Had these squalls that would pop up out of nowhere‘s with 60+ winds. The worst time to be in a Gulf was during January to March than for Hurricane season. I flew mostly in Choppers, hated the boats specially when we had 10 to 15 foot seas, a 10 hour boat ride was not a pleasant thing riding high seas. Its work definitely not for the weak hearted, living for weeks at a time on the water. Most of the younger guys out there you couldn’t trust, most where on drugs, they where dangerous to work around. Never had to Evacuate a platform for a emergency shut down but had many close calls. Have I seen death out in the Gulf? Yes I have, it’s does happen, most of the Accidents like chopper’s, going down taking off or landing on the platforms you don’t hear about that in the news.

Mike

 

[Swerd]

We all pay for these disasters. It's part of the insurance plan- charge people for coverage and find ways to deny paying them for their losses, then build fancy new headquarters and put ads on TV to show that you care.

You may think I'm not a fan of insurance companies. You're right. It's gambling. We're betting that we'll have a loss and they're betting that we won't, but the deck is stacked in their favor because they can deny coverage on a technicality.

I gotta agree. I have an uncle who lives on the Rockaway peninsula in New York. Hurricane Sandy completely washed over it, submerging the narrow peninsula letting the ocean meet the bay. Everyone's home was flooded. My uncle, never one to shy from a fight, hired a lawyer to fight his insurance company. He got his 'insurance adjustment' after only 1½ years! Many of his neighbors waited much longer, or got stiffed by their insurance companies.

 

[TLS Guy]

Humidity sucks. I live in a normally dry area but its been a bad summer here too. My ac unit just poors water out of it instead of the usual drip. Im looking forward to winter. The worst part about these huricanes is people are about to get raped by their insurance companies.

Not so much by the insurers as the system. Having lived through two major floods, I can tell you what happens.

Unfortunately 75% of owners at least will get no insurance payment at all, if it goes as past major flood events have.

Floods are not covered by home owners insurance. By law your insurance agent/company can only sell you Federal flood insurance heavily subsidized by the US taxpayers. The problem is that the mortgage company only insist on you paying for Federal flood insurance, and it is expensive, if you are in a designated flood plain. Now if you are out of a designated flood plain flood insurance may not be available to you.

Now with more moisture in the air it is simple physics that floods are, and will, get more common and worse. The physics of that can not be negated by any rational arguments what so ever. So you have the prevalent view of home owners, that "it has never flooded here before so I don't need flood insurance". Well in these recent events vast numbers of people have never flooded before. That is a major reason that I suspect the vast majority of home owners of this event will have no coverage.

Now it gets worse. After the great flood of 1997 in Grand Forks, I was appointed to the mayors task force on flood prevention.

I leaned a lot. The US Army corps of engineers draw the official flood plains. I found that they are an incompetent organization. Not only are most of their flood maps out of date, but they rate the flood plain to 100 year events. Now as a result of my service I got to meet and come to know, who I regard as one of the greatest hydrologists who ever lived. Ed Kuiper who in 1950 was a young newly minted Dutch hydrologist brought to Manitoba by the far sighed premier Duff Roblin after the catastrophic Red River floods of 1950. The whole of Winnipeg had to be evacuated in the middle of the night by the Canadian military in the middle of a fierce May snow and ice storm. Ed designed the bold ingenious, audacious and highly successful Winnipeg flood way, and other successful flood prevention schemes throughout the Province of Manitoba.

Anyhow one of the points I learned from Ed is that you do not draw flood plains to 100 year events but 500 year events.

Here is the problem. The hundred year rating makes people think they are only likely to get a flood once in a 100 years. What it actually means is that your chance is 1% per year. That means that in a 20 year period you have a one on five chance of having a flood. That actually puts flood risk in the correct perspective.

In closing I have to say the interaction between Ed and our corps engineers were hilarious, but unfortunately tragic.

 

[Swerd]

Not so much by the insurers as the system. Having lived through two major floods, I can tell you what happens…

Interesting story, and sadly true. Although I didn't know it, I'm not surprised by any of it. Similar stories about the flawed design and operations of the New Orleans Ship Canal came out after Hurricane Katrina.

The US Army Corp of Engineers is responsible for all the waterways of the greater Mississippi/Ohio/Missouri River Valley, as well as all the coastal waterways and beaches. The money to pay for this comes from Congress. As a result, the Army Corp of Engineers is subject to political pressure from Congress. And Congress is unfortunately subject to the pressures of the lobby groups paid by big businesses like the insurance companies. That's why the laws so heavily favor the insurance companies and not the insurance customers.

 

[Drunkpenguin]

Insurance is a racket in every market, home, auto, health. My fathers house was struck by lighting a couple years ago and it destroyed everything that was plugged into an outlet. The insurance company was pretty cool during the process, told him to go shopping and send them receipts which he did. They paid for everything and then immediately doubled his rates. He had to move to another insurance company to get it back to where it was. This was a 70 year old man who paid for home owners insurance his entire life and never filed a claim until that one.

 

[TLS Guy]

Interesting story, and sadly true. Although I didn't know it, I'm not surprised by any of it. Similar stories about the flawed design and operations of the New Orleans Ship Canal came out after Hurricane Katrina.

The US Army Corp of Engineers is responsible for all the waterways of the greater Mississippi/Ohio/Missouri River Valley, as well as all the coastal waterways and beaches. The money to pay for this comes from Congress. As a result, the Army Corp of Engineers is subject to political pressure from Congress. And Congress is unfortunately subject to the pressures of the lobby groups paid by big businesses like the insurance companies. That's why the laws so heavily favor the insurance companies and not the insurance customers.

That is not an entirely fair assessment. Due to poor flood control measures and building where you should not, home owners insurance was going to become unavailable. So in the event the federal government became the sole providers and underwriters of home owners flood insurance in 1968. It has been a line of red ink.

Now when I did have a flood in 1979, federal flood paid well. Because of losses federal flood will only now pay for the electric panel, furnace and hot water heater. The rest in the basement is at owners expense.
Sewer back up, but not ground water flooding is covered by home owners insurance if you have paid for that option.

Having sat on the board of an insurance company and been its treasurer, I know you can get into a situation where your actuaries can show that the insurance model can not work. That is what has happened in the flood insurance market. Insurance companies can not print money and have to stay solvent by law.

A few years ago there was an insurance conference in Minneapolis. There was a warning that Tornado insurance in the midwest may not be able to be provided much longer.

So I'm building an ICF concrete house complete with over sized roof trusses and hurricane clips.
The time for building stick homes in the US is OVER.

Flooding and its prevention are highly emotionally and therefore politically charged.

Fargo is a mega flood event waiting happen. It is no secret the Corps like dikes and try and shut down better approaches.

The only feasible option, exactly like Winnipeg because of all the rivers entering, is a mixed flow diversion, like Winnipeg.

The corps put it about that this would raise river levels down stream by up to 16 ft, whereas they are neutral to downstream levels.

So I'm going to post this link my letter to the Grand Forks Herald, and my subsequent brief requested by the mayor of Fargo. I'm sure some or many of the links are out of date, but you will get the drift.

Well the corps true to form either on purpose or stupidity designed a crazy over the top diversion scheme instead of a split. Minnesota went to court and now the Corps have finally submitted a sensible split flow project for Fargo/Moorehead. This now looks on track for approval with no serious opposition, at least that is what I hope.

If you conclude that flood control is a very difficult issue, then you are correct.

 

[highfigh]

I gotta agree. I have an uncle who lives on the Rockaway peninsula in New York. Hurricane Sandy completely washed over it, submerging the narrow peninsula letting the ocean meet the bay. Everyone's home was flooded. My uncle, never one to shy from a fight, hired a lawyer to fight his insurance company. He got his 'insurance adjustment' after only 1½ years! Many of his neighbors waited much longer, or got stiffed by their insurance companies.

The area where I live was hit by a storm that was different from others in 2010- rather than crossing at an angle to the general direction of travel, it came across as a straight line in the direction of travel, which dumped the rain in a narrow band that inundated the Milwaukee River and any other creeks nearby. I was at home that day and with a window open, I could hear the rain falling steadily- nothing to worry about. Normally. Later, I realized that I was hearing rain falling on water and when I looked out the front window, I saw that water had moved up the street to the edge of my driveway and that's a problem because it meant that the creek less than 200' to the West had risen over its bank. The rain stopped and I went out to look at what was happening, as others had done- we watched as the water continued to rise past my yard, to the next and the one past that. This means the creek was close to 5' over the bank- I grew up in this neighborhood and moved back after living in MKE for 17 years but I had never heard of this happening. Did I have water in my basement? Yes- in '97, I returned from a rafting trip to find that when it rained, the water dumped next to the corner of the house because a downspout elbow had come off, so I used two screws to fasten it. The next year, it rained even more in one day and at work, the water was shooting out of the storm sewer 3' high because they weren't able to handle that amount of water. The water rose, I was busy trying to save the place and everyone else had sneaked out to move their cars to higher ground, but nobody told me how high the water was, so mine drowned- parked uphill toward the building, the water reached the bottom of my dash. Car was totaled and they didn't give me much, but I was able to remove the stereo system because the woman said that it needed a radio and at least one pair of speakers. Why this was needed, I don't know- it was being junked, anyway. My basement, however, was bone dry- same for the sump pump crock.

In 2006, we had rain 26 out of 30 days that June and I had water seeping through the cracks in my basement floor almost constantly. I had already learn that I needed to keep things in plastic bins and above the floor, but this was ridiculous. I walked around the house and fond that my next door neighbor had redirected their downspout away from their garage, toward and ONTO my yard. This caused the water from that part of their garage roof to come onto my yard and I have calculated that 16" of rain to have dumped over 3500 gallons of water onto my yard. In 2010,

In the 1930s, the WPA had built a dam and spillway in the river, not far from here. The creeks feed into the and MKE River and that continues to the MKE harbor, where the MKE, Kinnikinnick and Menomonee Rivers meet before heading out to Lake Michigan through a channel. In '97, 98 and 2010, the pylons that were installed ahead of the dam gates had so much debris in front that it created an artificially high water level behind and it slowed the water flow, so anything coming from the North had no choice but to rise to levels never seen before. I went to the parking lot below the dam to see if the gates were open (they weren't in '97) and saw that they were, but the water was spilling over the trees, logs and branches that had piled up against the pylons. They called these 100, 200, 300 and 500 year floods.

Call me Methuzela.

 

[highfigh]

That is not an entirely fair assessment. Due to poor flood control measures and building where you should not, home owners insurance was going to become unavailable. So in the event the federal government became the sole providers and underwriters of home owners flood insurance in 1968. It has been a line of red ink.

Now when I did have a flood in 1979, federal flood paid well. Because of losses federal flood will only now pay for the electric panel, furnace and hot water heater. The rest in the basement is at owners expense.
Sewer back up, but not ground water flooding is covered by home owners insurance if you have paid for that option.

Having sat on the board of an insurance company and been its treasurer, I know you can get into a situation where your actuaries can show that the insurance model can not work. That is what has happened in the flood insurance market. Insurance companies can not print money and have to stay solvent by law.

A few years ago there was an insurance conference in Minneapolis. There was a warning that Tornado insurance in the midwest may not be able to be provided much longer.

So I'm building an ICF concrete house complete with over sized roof trusses and hurricane clips.
The time for building stick homes in the US is OVER.

Flooding and its prevention are highly emotionally and therefore politically charged.

Fargo is a mega flood event waiting happen. It is no secret the Corps like dikes and try and shut down better approaches.

The only feasible option, exactly like Winnipeg because of all the rivers entering, is a mixed flow diversion, like Winnipeg.

The corps put it about that this would raise river levels down stream by up to 16 ft, whereas they are neutral to downstream levels.

So I'm going to post this link my letter to the Grand Forks Herald, and my subsequent brief requested by the mayor of Fargo. I'm sure some or many of the links are out of date, but you will get the drift.

Well the corps true to form either on purpose or stupidity designed a crazy over the top diversion scheme instead of a split. Minnesota went to court and now the Corps have finally submitted a sensible split flow project for Fargo/Moorehead. This now looks on track for approval with no serious opposition, at least that is what I hope.

If you conclude that flood control is a very difficult issue, then you are correct.

The Corp of Engineers also created the path where the Atlantic enters the St Lawrence Seaway and from what I have read, it's in terrible condition & was a terrible design. It would be nice to believe they know what they're doing, but I haven't seen anything lately that confirms this.

It's as if they forgot that water doesn't flow uphill.

 

[Midwesthonky]

That is not an entirely fair assessment. Due to poor flood control measures and building where you should not, home owners insurance was going to become unavailable. So in the event the federal government became the sole providers and underwriters of home owners flood insurance in 1968. It has been a line of red ink.

Now when I did have a flood in 1979, federal flood paid well. Because of losses federal flood will only now pay for the electric panel, furnace and hot water heater. The rest in the basement is at owners expense.
Sewer back up, but not ground water flooding is covered by home owners insurance if you have paid for that option.

Having sat on the board of an insurance company and been its treasurer, I know you can get into a situation where your actuaries can show that the insurance model can not work. That is what has happened in the flood insurance market. Insurance companies can not print money and have to stay solvent by law.

A few years ago there was an insurance conference in Minneapolis. There was a warning that Tornado insurance in the midwest may not be able to be provided much longer.

So I'm building an ICF concrete house complete with over sized roof trusses and hurricane clips.
The time for building stick homes in the US is OVER.

Flooding and its prevention are highly emotionally and therefore politically charged.

Fargo is a mega flood event waiting happen. It is no secret the Corps like dikes and try and shut down better approaches.

The only feasible option, exactly like Winnipeg because of all the rivers entering, is a mixed flow diversion, like Winnipeg.

The corps put it about that this would raise river levels down stream by up to 16 ft, whereas they are neutral to downstream levels.

So I'm going to post this link my letter to the Grand Forks Herald, and my subsequent brief requested by the mayor of Fargo. I'm sure some or many of the links are out of date, but you will get the drift.

Well the corps true to form either on purpose or stupidity designed a crazy over the top diversion scheme instead of a split. Minnesota went to court and now the Corps have finally submitted a sensible split flow project for Fargo/Moorehead. This now looks on track for approval with no serious opposition, at least that is what I hope.

If you conclude that flood control is a very difficult issue, then you are correct.

I pay attention to the diversion as my in-laws live up that way and I have helped sandbag when up there for work. My in-laws are 1/4 mile outside the diversion plan. I talked with my FIL about the original diversion plan and it was so stupid that I would have kicked the people responsible out of the Corps. It included bridges to carry water from streams over the diversion. I don't know if anyone in the Corps realized that it can get cold in Fargo. Like days on end of -20 F to -30 F. A water bridge completely surrounded by -30F air temperatures is going to freeze.

That whole Red River Valley is going to flood. It is located in an ancient lake bed and has a major river that flows north...into frozen country in spring time. It has always had problems and always will. They need a realistic diversion program. I've been to Winnipeg and their system is really nice. It was also built when there was minimal people living in the way of the diversion. But it has been very effective for Winnipeg. Good for them.

I knew someone who was going to transfer to the Corps. I wasn't impressed then and even less now.

 

[Midwesthonky]

The area where I live was hit by a storm that was different from others in 2010- rather than crossing at an angle to the general direction of travel, it came across as a straight line in the direction of travel, which dumped the rain in a narrow band that inundated the Milwaukee River and any other creeks nearby. I was at home that day and with a window open, I could hear the rain falling steadily- nothing to worry about. Normally. Later, I realized that I was hearing rain falling on water and when I looked out the front window, I saw that water had moved up the street to the edge of my driveway and that's a problem because it meant that the creek less than 200' to the West had risen over its bank. The rain stopped and I went out to look at what was happening, as others had done- we watched as the water continued to rise past my yard, to the next and the one past that. This means the creek was close to 5' over the bank- I grew up in this neighborhood and moved back after living in MKE for 17 years but I had never heard of this happening. Did I have water in my basement? Yes- in '97, I returned from a rafting trip to find that when it rained, the water dumped next to the corner of the house because a downspout elbow had come off, so I used two screws to fasten it. The next year, it rained even more in one day and at work, the water was shooting out of the storm sewer 3' high because they weren't able to handle that amount of water. The water rose, I was busy trying to save the place and everyone else had sneaked out to move their cars to higher ground, but nobody told me how high the water was, so mine drowned- parked uphill toward the building, the water reached the bottom of my dash. Car was totaled and they didn't give me much, but I was able to remove the stereo system because the woman said that it needed a radio and at least one pair of speakers. Why this was needed, I don't know- it was being junked, anyway. My basement, however, was bone dry- same for the sump pump crock.

In 2006, we had rain 26 out of 30 days that June and I had water seeping through the cracks in my basement floor almost constantly. I had already learn that I needed to keep things in plastic bins and above the floor, but this was ridiculous. I walked around the house and fond that my next door neighbor had redirected their downspout away from their garage, toward and ONTO my yard. This caused the water from that part of their garage roof to come onto my yard and I have calculated that 16" of rain to have dumped over 3500 gallons of water onto my yard. In 2010,

In the 1930s, the WPA had built a dam and spillway in the river, not far from here. The creeks feed into the and MKE River and that continues to the MKE harbor, where the MKE, Kinnikinnick and Menomonee Rivers meet before heading out to Lake Michigan through a channel. In '97, 98 and 2010, the pylons that were installed ahead of the dam gates had so much debris in front that it created an artificially high water level behind and it slowed the water flow, so anything coming from the North had no choice but to rise to levels never seen before. I went to the parking lot below the dam to see if the gates were open (they weren't in '97) and saw that they were, but the water was spilling over the trees, logs and branches that had piled up against the pylons. They called these 100, 200, 300 and 500 year floods.

Call me Methuzela.

So you live in that neighborhood? The flood areas of Milwaukee have become a mess. Crappy piping, no maintenance, bad county and city management, etc. Makes me glad I moved to Waukesha County. I'm up so if I flood, we have biblical level issues.

 

[highfigh]

So you live in that neighborhood? The flood areas of Milwaukee have become a mess. Crappy piping, no maintenance, bad county and city management, etc. Makes me glad I moved to Waukesha County. I'm up so if I flood, we have biblical level issues.

I'm in Glendale- no lead pipes here, since the city installed water in the early-'60s.

I went fishing at the MKE river under the bridge at Bender Rd and against the center support is a huge pile of trees and branches that had fallen into the river and washed downstream. One whole tree had been at the Kletsch Park waterfall for over a year and when I went past after the big rain, I saw that it was gone. This is the kind of stuff that caused the flooding in 2010, but it was caught at Estabrook Park, ahead of the dam.

 

[Midwesthonky]

I'm in Glendale- no lead pipes here, since the city installed water in the early-'60s.

I went fishing at the MKE river under the bridge at Bender Rd and against the center support is a huge pile of trees and branches that had fallen into the river and washed downstream. One whole tree had been at the Kletsch Park waterfall for over a year and when I went past after the big rain, I saw that it was gone. This is the kind of stuff that caused the flooding in 2010, but it was caught at Estabrook Park, ahead of the dam.

It wouldn't take much to fix the issue. A small crew with chainsaws and an excavator with a grapple on the end. But then, that would take someone to do something logical. So we spend lots of money on a streetcar that isn't running full yet but is already costing litigation due to accidents with motorcyclists and bicyclists.

 

[j_garcia]

Just came back from Michigan via Chicago. It was humid and pretty heavy rain there still.

 

[highfigh]

It wouldn't take much to fix the issue. A small crew with chainsaws and an excavator with a grapple on the end. But then, that would take someone to do something logical. So we spend lots of money on a streetcar that isn't running full yet but is already costing litigation due to accidents with motorcyclists and bicyclists.

But this isn't Milwaukee, it's Glendale- a small crane on a flatbed truck should be able to pick everything up from the river if they position the truck over the support. I found it interesting that it's all centered on the support and the gaps on both sides are clear. One of the trees was over 40' and I had wondered what it would take to make that one go over the falls since it had been stuck there for a couple of years.

Nice they had a bike day for people to learn to ride across the streetcar tracks at close to a right angle, rather than at a lower angle. Anyone who didn't already know this was a likely candidate for a Darwin Award.

 

[Midwesthonky]

But this isn't Milwaukee, it's Glendale- a small crane on a flatbed truck should be able to pick everything up from the river if they position the truck over the support. I found it interesting that it's all centered on the support and the gaps on both sides are clear. One of the trees was over 40' and I had wondered what it would take to make that one go over the falls since it had been stuck there for a couple of years.

Nice they had a bike day for people to learn to ride across the streetcar tracks at close to a right angle, rather than at a lower angle. Anyone who didn't already know this was a likely candidate for a Darwin Award.

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised at the number of issues with people crashing on the streetcar tracks. It's pretty logical and it's something I learned somewhere around age 6 or 7. My motorcycle course made us ride over a 2x4 and covered train tracks so I know what to do. But it's amazing the number of people that don't. Darwin award is pretty close to the truth.