What are “ Balanced In/out”.

Good4it

Good4it

Audioholic Chief
What are they used for? Are they better than regular outputs?
 

TechHDS

Audioholic General
That depends if you have a balance pre-pro or pre-amp. You do know I’m sure you noticed you have XLR L/R main outs on your A3080. M-Code or PENG or one of the other gurus can explain it better than I can about the “balance” thing. It is better though. How are you liking your flagship unit? I’ll be getting the same unit first week of October can’t wait to get my hands on it.

Mike
 
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WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
The main benefit of balanced signals is that can be run long distances – even hundreds of feet – with no noise. They are typically used in pro audio situations, such as at performance venues to get the signal from the stage to the mixing console at the back of the room.

Obvious, long-distance cable runs is not an issue with home audio, so unbalanced connections work perfectly fine, and indeed can be run surprisingly long distances as long as the cable has an excellent shield. Thus the main benefit for balanced connections for home use would be to utilize the XLR connectors, which are vastly superior to RCAs.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
Good4it

Good4it

Audioholic Chief
That depends if you have a balance pre-pro or pre-amp. You do know I’m sure you noticed you have XLR L/R main outs on your A3080. M-Code or PENG or one of the other gurus can explain it better I can about the “balance” thing. It is better though. How are you liking your flagship unit? I’ll be getting the same unit first week of October can’t wait to get my hands on it.

Mike

Other than they advertise that streaming apps are available but info on how to use them is missing I like it fine.
I especially like the fact that 9 channel sound is available without having to have 9 speakers. More later.

Enjoy yours and tell use how you find it.
 
Good4it

Good4it

Audioholic Chief
The main benefit of balanced signals is that can be run long distances – even hundreds of feet – with no noise. They are typically used in pro audio situations, such as at performance venues to get the signal from the stage to the mixing console at the back of the room.

Obvious, long-distance cable runs is not an issue with home audio, so unbalanced connections work perfectly fine, and indeed can be run surprisingly long distances as long as the cable has an excellent shield. Thus the main benefit for balanced connections for home use would be to utilize the XLR connectors, which are vastly superior to RCAs.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Thanks Wayne:)
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The primary benefit of balanced interconnects for home use is that they have vastly superior connectors, both male and female. So-called RCA plugs and sockets are poorly-designed by comparison. The click of a male into a female XLR Neutrik socket is just plain satisfying.
 
WineOfTheVeins

WineOfTheVeins

Audioholic
Wayne summed it up perfectly. Some people swear by them, if they have the option of XLR over RCA, they go XLR, even for 10-15 foot runs. My integrated has XLR outs but I currently don't have any devices that accept it or I would give it a side by side.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Balanced outputs and Differential inputs (the technically correct name; although "Balanced inputs" is the colloquial common use) have two primary advantages and one disadvantage.

As mentioned, there is relatively little signal quality loss with "long" cable lengths. "Long" in this case meaning some number greater than between about 10 and 20 feet, where a single ended (the term for a non-balanced connection) cable will experience signal losses, starting at the high frequencies and with the starting measurable frequency rolloff decreasing as the length increases (eg maybe at 10 feet there is a slight loss beginning at 18 KHz, and maybe at 20 feet that rolloff starts at 15 KHz; just arbitrary values to illustrate the phenomena. Actual values will depend on the equipment and cable involved).

Along that long length of cable (or for that matter, a short length under the right circumstances) will be noise generating signals. Maybe the cable must run parallel to another cable carrying signal or power, for example. The longer the cable, the more opportunity to intersect or interact with a noise generating source.

With a single ended cable you will pick up all the noise sources you encounter, depending on things like how long the cable is parallel to the source, how much or what type of energy is involved, etc. There is also RF antenna pickup, which depends on the specific length of the cable run and what frequency it corresponds to. For example you would not want a cable that is 57" or so long because that makes a nice FM radio antenna. Since the spectrum of RF runs the gamut, virtually every cable length will be susceptible to some radio frequency.

With a balanced / differential cable run, it still encounters the same noise sources, and is just as susceptible to those noise sources as single ended, but there will be a cancellation when both the (+) and (-) signal cables encounter the exact same source, resulting in zero noise pickup at those sources due to cancellation effects.

Say you have a 60 Hz hum sine wave from an AC power cable ... if the (+) run and the (-) run encounter the same interference, because they are opposite polarity, it's like adding two values of opposite denomination ... +10 and -10 is zero. This works with ALL noise sources, including your RF radio pickup from the cable acting as an antenna. *

Also there is much less high frequency attenuation and what attenuation exists, happens after much longer runs (100 feet is considered a reasonable limit, and with live music in a stadium, balanced cable length is often longer than that and still works acceptably, if not perfectly).

The disadvantage of balanced cables is the higher cost of construction, and if you are a believer in cable swapping, the smaller choice of connectors and cable in the usual manufacturers' catalogs.

As for the latter, I would not personally worry much about it, but certainly there are different schools of thought on the issue. But consider even "lunatic fringe" audio manufacturers like Audio Note use standard catalog Neutrik connectors for their components; this from a company that manufactures it's own female RCAs that cost three to six times as much as a female (chassis) Neutrik connector.

As for cable, a longstanding budget cable standby are various microphone cable types from Belden, Canare, and Mogami. These are cables designed for balanced cable assemblies.

So even though the minimum cost for balanced construction cables is higher than the minimum cost for a decent single-ended equivalent, and the boutique manufacturers have some very expensive connectors in the catalog that rival any uber-fancy RCA you might find, chances are you can get by with four $5~8 Neutrik connectors and whatever length of cable you need in between. If you were building them yourself, or buy them from someone like MarkerTek (Note1) or have them built by the likes of Redco (Note2) perhaps $50 all in per stereo pair, with appropriate solder, some shrink wrap and techflex, etc.

* The astute reader might wonder why this cancellation doesn't happen with single-ended cable as well, after all, there is apparently a (+) and (-) cable there as well. The difference is in the equipment, not the cable, which is just transmitting what the equipment provides and needs. The signal with a single ended preamp and amplifier is different than with a balanced preamp and differential amplifier, allowing the cancellation effect to work with the latter and not the former.

There are the "star-quad" construction cables, designed for microphones, that do offer a cancellation effect in the cable itself with single-ended equipment. It is quite effective, but only reduces noise on each individual (+) and (-) cable, not to both together as a balanced / differential connection does.

Note1:
MarkerTek
www.markertek.com
Example: 3' premade XLR cable, Mogami cable and it looks like Switchcraft connectors (1 channel) $26
https://www.markertek.com/product/msc3xxj/mogami-mic-cable-3-pin-xlr-male-to-3-pin-xlr-female-3-foot-black

Note2
Redco
www.redco.com
Choose "custom cable"
I built a 4' one with Canare cable and Neutrik premium connectors, gold terminals, for $17.10. I can't provide a link because their interactive cable specification doesn't generate one, but there you go.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The astute reader might wonder why this cancellation doesn't happen with single-ended cable as well, after all, there is apparently a (+) and (-) cable there as well. The difference is in the equipment, not the cable, which is just transmitting what the equipment provides and needs. The signal with a single ended preamp and amplifier is different than with a balanced preamp and differential amplifier, allowing the cancellation effect to work with the latter and not the former.
Why is it you feel that you must post technical explanations when it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about?

Balanced cables transmit two signals, one is phase-inverted compared to the other, on two different conductors. Electrically combining the two inverted signals results in what's called common mode rejection, which is a cancellation of any added noise or distortion that affects both signals. The amount of the cancellation is expressed as a ratio in decibels, called the Common Mode Rejection Ratio, or CMRR.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
A note about equipment that incorporates differential inputs and outputs:

There are a few ways to implement balanced outputs and differential inputs.

One, the method sometimes implemented in higher cost gear, is to have totally separate positive and negative signal paths input to output. What this means is for each channel, there are two discreet signal paths; two amplifiers per channel, basically. It is not that common on modern gear, but older equipment sometimes were built this way. Each path works on one polarity. Obviously an expensive way to make a component, doubling everything over a single-ended construction. In the current marketplace for High End audio, Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) uses this implementation in their products.

https://balanced.com

Two, using an operational amplifier circuit to convert the balanced connection to single ended at the input and output (or just the input in the case of a power amplifier). After the conversion, the rest of the device is single ended internally. The least expensive method. Quite common, for obvious reasons (cost). One circuit required for all inputs (or two for both inputs and outputs).

Three, using specialized components designed for this purpose. Made by a company called THAT Corporation, ex-DBX engineers. Higher cost, better quality than the off-the-shelf opamp designs, and converting to single-ended internally, like option two. Possibly the best balanced-to-single ended method available, as it is extremely low noise and wideband, with - zero point five figures distortion. There are also opportunities to provide slight gain with the circuit, which may be enough for a preamp with the right power amplifier in the system, avoiding the need for other preamp amplification stages, which has cost, noise, and distortion advantages. Not common, but will be found in higher end gear. One circuit required for all inputs (or two for both inputs and outputs).

Four, by the use of a transformer; with a single-ended circuit path after or before the transformer. Very common in Pro Audio gear, less common in HiFi although far from unheard of. Transformers of suitable quality are expensive and if so specified, the most expensive option except for option one. However low cost transformers are available, and are sometimes used in inexpensive gear, more commonly in Pro Audio consumer gear. Because you want quality transformers if used, for good HiFi setups it's pretty rare today but can be found in vintage gear. One transformer required for each input or output, so obviously not a good option for an AVR, as even large quantity wholesale transformer orders of suitable quality will cost the manufacturer at least $50 each and more likely more than that.

With regard to the value of XLR cables in home audio gear with typically short cable runs, the problem to be solved (whether it is a problem that needs addressing is your first consideration) is how to deal with noise and cross-talk in dense back panels, like those found on AVR gear but really with anything since the "behind the rack" cable setups can be quite messy and disorganized. All that cable in close proximity to others and to AC power lines can be a noise generating situation. So, there is an argument for balanced connections in a typical HiFi setup.
 
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