Im sick of my Marantz PM8005 Stereo Integrated Amp, I want to upgrade..

[Bernardo Garcia Barros]

guys since i live in mexico, im going to post brands that I can purchased here in my country
I have a Marantz PM8005, and PSB Synchrony One Speakers (4 ohms)

these are my options:

a) Marantz PM-14S1
(Marantz claims that the sound quality is the same, i dont think so) (no demo on reference series)
b) NAD C388
(im not a fan of Digital amps, however they claim its better than the BEE lineup, and also is a DAC / Amp Combo) (demoing on friday)
c) NAD C165BEE pre amp & one or two NAD C275 power amp
(no idea how does it sounds) (trying to get the demo)
d) ARCAM A39
(seems small for my PSB towers, but the A49 its way out of my league) (demoing on friday)
e) Integra DTM-7
(the seller says its the best they have, but no demos) (they have rotel Mc and Classé
f) Shiit Audio Freya preamp & one or two Vidar power amps
(the send it worldwide, but theres no demos) (however i love the headphone amps, i have the fulla and the Joutenheim)

we have other brands like ROTEL, McIntosh & Classé Yanaha Denon and so others but not a big fan bang for the buck

 

[lovinthehd]

Sick of the amp in what way? You just have the itch to buy something? What do you expect to achieve?

 

[Bernardo Garcia Barros]

the built quality on my Marantz is bad, I dont know if its bad luck with this specific component or what, as my other Marantz havent fail at all, (i have a cd player and a network player) but since i bought it, it has been two times in service..
right now as we speak is in service, the inputs some times skips like crazy, from phono to CD and from network player to phono, and also there is some static noise in the right speaker when I down the volume.

i think its time for a change, but i want something better in terms of sound quality, especificly on image and soundstage..

 

[lovinthehd]

That sucks. Seems Marantz should make good with a different unit....

Image and soundstage are products of your speakers....

 

[Bernardo Garcia Barros]

That sucks. Seems Marantz should make good with a different unit....

Image and soundstage are products of your speakers....

got you but my PSB synchrony one cant do it with a low quality or under powered amp
i think that my electronics are not enough for my speakers (I love my speakers, im shure they can do a lot more)

 

[lovinthehd]

Looking at the review on Stereophile your speakers dip rather low in impedance so a 4 ohm stable amp, even 2 ohm, would be a good thing. I don't follow the integrated amps much, don't use one so really no suggestions for you. The Nad C275BEE amp seems beefy enough.

 

[TLS Guy]

got you but my PSB synchrony one cant do it with a low quality or under powered amp
i think that my electronics are not enough for my speakers (I love my speakers, im shure they can do a lot more)

I'm not sure it can do it with any amp. I'm highly suspicious of the design, and they are certainly amplifier busters. It is going to take an expensive cast iron amp to not keep failing. I know of no integrated amp that can fit the bill.

Here is the impedance curve and phase angles.

In the power band the speaker is below four ohms most of the time. I would classify them as no higher than 3 ohm speakers. In addition the tuning peaks are odd. There is a dip of impedance to nearly two ohms in the 1KHz region there is a dip to just above 2 ohms. This is close to the crossover region.

Now it is worse than it looks as there is a negative phase angle between voltage and current of just over 50 degrees where the impedance is around 4 ohms. So the impedance is actually lower than measured.

The reviewer found that the speakers were troublesome as to location with the bass tending to be over warm.

A lot of the reason for this is that the design has a passive crossover at 70 Hz for the lower woofer. This also appears to be in some type of extended bass alignment from the look of it.

Now I have been building and designing speakers for a very long time. I gave up attempting the use of passive components a long time ago in those low frequencies. For the last 40 years plus I have used only active electronic crossovers for a low crossovers like that.

Like others, I have found that the speaker and crossover are actually in resonance with low frequency passive crossovers like that. You first tip is that the impedance drops below the DC resistance of the drivers. When that occurs you have a major problem and it really busts amps. It does not sound that good either as the amp is stressed. From that graph posted above I would say more far more likely than not the passive components are in resonance.

Certainly Floyd Toole and others, especially Billy Woodman of ATC have drawn attention to this problem. Floyd Toole I think would put this speaker in his incompetently designed category because of it requirement to be driven by something closer to an arc welder than an audio amplifier. Certainly I would not be happy with any speaker of mine having an impedance curve and phase angles like that. For me, that would call for a major redesign
The bottom line is that I don't think your speakers are as good as you think they are. Certainly they can only be driven by the most robust of amplifiers.

 

[Bookmark]

I have no real wish to contradict you, however....

The negative phase angle indicated is below the Frequency Response claimed for the speakers @33Hz and at that point the Ohms are 2.6 ish and the phase is around -15 to -20.
The lowest the Speakers ever reach is 2.6 Ohms, so closer to 3 than 2 in reality.
Stereophile and a number of other reviewers do not indicate a problem with the bass response inherent from the design, in fact they commend it.
The solution to placement issue was to use the supplied plugs for the bottom woofers port which negated the problem encountered.

"The PSB Synchrony One offers superb measured performance, as I have come to expect of Paul Barton designs.—John Atkinson"

The Marantz might not be a capable 2 Ohm driver, but then most of the listening tests were done with seriously more expensive items

Parasound Halo JC 1 ($6000 each), Musical Fidelity 550k Supercharger ($5000 a pair), Mark Levinson No.33H monoblocks ($20,000 a pair); Boulder 860 (~$15,000 for the pre amp and amp).

Paul Barton was also at the CNRC as Dr Floyd O'toole, so probably knows him quite well and I doubt he would suggest Paul an incompetent designer.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have no real wish to contradict you, however....

The negative phase angle indicated is below the Frequency Response claimed for the speakers @33Hz and at that point the Ohms are 2.6 ish and the phase is around -15 to -20.
The lowest the Speakers ever reach is 2.6 Ohms, so closer to 3 than 2 in reality.
Stereophile and a number of other reviewers do not indicate a problem with the bass response inherent from the design, in fact they commend it.
The solution to placement issue was to use the supplied plugs for the bottom woofers port which negated the problem encountered.

"The PSB Synchrony One offers superb measured performance, as I have come to expect of Paul Barton designs.—John Atkinson"

The Marantz might not be a capable 2 Ohm driver, but then most of the listening tests were done with seriously more expensive items

Parasound Halo JC 1 ($6000 each), Musical Fidelity 550k Supercharger ($5000 a pair), Mark Levinson No.33H monoblocks ($20,000 a pair); Boulder 860 (~$15,000 for the pre amp and amp).

Paul Barton was also at the CNRC as Dr Floyd O'toole, so probably knows him quite well and I doubt he would suggest Paul an incompetent designer.

You can say what you like, but I would not be happy with the graph I copied above. If it were my design I would do something about it.

From my perspective I do not think a speaker should be marketed that should have to be driven by an amp tolerating that load. I know you can make a high priced amp that tolerates it, but that does still not excuse it. In any event an amp to really perform well and reliably with that load will cost more then the speakers, which is ridiculous. Anyhow that is my opinion and I don't care who designed it.

 

[Bernardo Garcia Barros]

right now the most probable update is going to be:
NAD C165BEE pre amp & two NAD C275 power amps

since I can buy them one bye one every 4 months..

 

[TLS Guy]

right now the most probable update is going to be:
NAD C165BEE pre amp & two NAD C275 power amps

since I can buy them one bye one every 4 months..

I would be careful. There are a lot of refurbs available which should tell you something. They are known for trouble in the power stage protection. That issue has come up on these forums.

I think you will need a more massive hunk of iron for those speakers.

 

[Bernardo Garcia Barros]

I would be careful. There are a lot of refurbs available which should tell you something. They are known for trouble in the power stage protection. That issue has come up on these forums.

I think you will need a more massive hunk of iron for those speakers.

thanks, a lot thats an excelente advice..
what would be a good option?
the seller claims that Integra brand is build for last and i have 4 Onkyos and i know its a well made brand, but im not too shure about the sound quality, and that amp is not for demo

 

[PENG]

Now it is worse than it looks as there is a negative phase angle between voltage and current of just over 50 degrees where the impedance is around 4 ohms. So the impedance is actually lower than measured.

Impedance value is represented by a complex number that includes the phase angle effect, so you are incorrect in saying "..it is actually lower than measured..". If it measured 4 ohms, with phase angle of 50 degree, then the magnitude of the impedance is in fact 4 ohms in magnitude, with phase angle between the voltage and current phasors being 50 degrees, period.

Floyd Toole I think would put this speaker in his incompetently designed category because of it requirement to be driven by something closer to an arc welder than an audio amplifier. Certainly I would not be happy with any speaker of mine having an impedance curve and phase angles like that. For me, that would call for a major redesign

There is no way Dr. Toole Ph.D and an EE would ever say such a thing but okay, we are not him so we are just guessing. The fact is, PSB designed and built this speaker, and they recommended 20-300 W, no where near arc welder class kind of amplification. A real 300 W/500 W 8/4 ohm rated class AB amp will be suitable for the Synchrony One but one can assume the McIntosh Mc1.25 kW X2 would work too.

One reviewer tried 50 W and it was find for "normal listening level" whatever he meant by that..he said:

But there’s a catch: To play the Synchrony Ones super loud, you need an amplifier that can deliver current. The One has decent sensitivity, but its impedance is low and likely to cause some amplifiers grief if they can’t handle a tough load. I suspect it has mostly to do with the three woofers working together amidst the rather complex crossover configuration. I used the One with Stello M200 mono amps and a Simaudio Moon Evolution W-7 stereo amp and there was never an issue -- these amplifiers can deliver about 150 watts into 8 ohms, and they take on tough speaker loads without flinching. However, when I hooked up the much smaller Simaudio Moon i-1 integrated amp that’s rated at just 50Wpc into 8 ohms, it held together well enough at a normal listening level, but it clipped severely when I went past that. Quite simply, if you want to play these speakers at the levels I described and not risk damage to the speakers or the amp, I recommend a suitably powerful amplifier that stays stable into low impedances -- definitely as low as 4 ohms, ideally down to 2.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/psb_synchrony_one.htm

 

[PENG]

thanks, a lot thats an excelente advice..
what would be a good option?
the seller claims that Integra brand is build for last and i have 4 Onkyos and i know its a well made brand, but im not too shure about the sound quality, and that amp is not for demo

Those speakers are solid, Stereophile grouped them in their "Class A" list. Just get some 300W/500W PC 8/4 ohm class AB power amps and enjoy. There are integrated amps that can do the job too, but not those Marantz and NAD ones.

 

[TLS Guy]

thanks, a lot thats an excelente advice..
what would be a good option?
the seller claims that Integra brand is build for last and i have 4 Onkyos and i know its a well made brand, but im not too shure about the sound quality, and that amp is not for demo

I would look at something like this. QSC have a reputation for being clean tough and reliable at a reasonable price. I don't know if you can get them in Mexico, but I bet you can as they are popular for cinema sound.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would look at something like this. QSC have a reputation for being clean tough and reliable at a reasonable price. I don't know if you can get them in Mexico, but I bet you can as they are popular for cinema sound.

I almost suggested a pro amp easily capable of low impedance loads but wasn't sure he was ready for such a shocking relevation what with the brands he's considering.....

 

[Bernardo Garcia Barros]

I almost suggested a pro amp easily capable of low impedance loads but wasn't sure he was ready for such a shocking relevation what with the brands he's considering.....

maybe there are other amp brands that i dont know if they are here, since i dont know even their names..

and does anyone have ever heard the schiit home audio stuff??
http://www.schiit.com/public/upload/general/vidar-combo-1920.jpg

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

maybe there are other amp brands that i dont know if they are here, since i dont know even their names..

and does anyone have ever heard the schiit home audio stuff??
http://www.schiit.com/public/upload/general/vidar-combo-1920.jpg

No one in the USA would ever buy anything named “SCHIIT” because it sounds like “SH!t”. LOL.

 

[Bernardo Garcia Barros]

I would look at something like this. QSC have a reputation for being clean tough and reliable at a reasonable price. I don't know if you can get them in Mexico, but I bet you can as they are popular for cinema sound.

thats a lot of power for an outstanding price, and they are small enough for international shipping

 

[Bernardo Garcia Barros]

No one in the USA would ever buy anything named “SCHIIT” because it sounds like “SH!t”. LOL.

i have two headphone amps and those guys have amazing stuff truly outstanding
actually its a US made brand, its just a guy in california i think

just check all the reviews on internet... i have the jotenheim headphone amp and its truly something else, but they are well known for headphone amps, speaker amps are something else..