11.2 system from scratch, well mostly

[snakeeyes]

Look nice. I’ll do some research but I’m guessing the shipping up to Canada would be cost prohibitive for me. Likely will be buying second hand if I’m going to upgrade. Now it’s a whole other debate about what type of mains and Centre channel to get. This will be something Ill do after I’ve determined the receiver, have it all hooked up and have some sound coming out lol.

I wonder what Dennis Murphy would recommend for Atmos speakers with the BMRs and MTM?

 

[CBASS]

When I see 2 channel amps for this price any of these 9.2 receivers are easily upgraded. Now as I know nothing about separates or power amps I could certainly be making people cringe right now with this amp I posted below. Is 60 WPC enough?

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-apa102-class-d-stereo-60-wpc-amplifier-auto-on--300-591

 

[CBASS]

Hi Cbass,

Welcome to the forum. Just a heads up that both Peng & I recently purchased a Denon AVR-X4400H, so we are up to speed on this. (For my setup see Denon AVR-X4400H - Initial Setup ) The 4400 has 9 channels of amplification, but it can process 11. You can connect an external amplifier for any pair of speakers you'd want to drive. Even though I installed 4 in-ceiling speakers, and moved the rest from a 6.1 setup to a 7.2 resulting in a potential 11.2, or 7.2.4 in Dolby Atmos parlance.

My logic is I wasn't sold on the impact of immersive sound using 13 speakers for my room (which is of similar size to yours),and difference in price for a Denon 4400 and the Denon AVR-X6400H; was the 4400 was about half the price of the 6400. So I opted for the 4400, and plan to buy 3 HSU CCB-8 speakers to replace my aged fronts with the difference. There is an App you can get for the Denons which allow you to save different setup configurations, so you can easily go from say a 5.2.4 to a 7.2.2, etc.

Another concern is the physical difference between the rear surrounds, and the rear in-ceiling speakers in my room (which is similar in size to yours) meet Dolby standards (at least as far as I know),but they certainly seem close to each other. I'm really not certain how impactful a 7.2.4 will be versus a 5.2.4, or a 7.2.2 with only the front in-ceiling speakers. I think you too should consider this.

However, if you've got $2500 and want the simplicity of an all in one AVR now (which will be more convenient) I'd suggest the Denon AVR-X6400H. If you are in the USA, and not adverse to B Stock (I'm not) try this $1600 USD deal at Accessories4Less - 6400H Deal If you are in Canada a similar $1900 CAD deal is at Gibbys Gibby's 6400 Receiver Deal

I hope this is helpful.

This is getting to be quite the conversation. I can go with roughly 800- 1000 dollar denon or Marantz and a cheap 2 channel amp for 7.4.2 or I get up into 1500-2500 for one that’s a little later and greater. One of the primary reasons I was leaning to the Marantz SR8012 was the power supply for this many speakers and of course the other bells and whistles. The more options I have the more confusing it becomes lol.

Cheers,
CBASS

 

[everettT]

FWIW, you would be good with 5.2.4. Your room really isnt too large in regards to effects channels. Good to do at your price, but some of the rear will be lost at your seating position.

 

[everettT]

If in Canada see what the SVS ultra bookshelf set will run you. Good dynamics and smooth midrange.

 

[PENG]

Thanks,

I’m in Canada so Gibbeys or Newegg is where I’m looking. B-stock is all I’m looking at. I’ve heard the overhead speakers in small rooms before and actually liked what they added. At any rate the holes are cut as you can see in the picture so 7.2.4 it is . View attachment 25325
I’m not too worried about absolute simplicity. I want the most bang for the buck. I have to look at what a 2 or 3 channel amp is going to cost before I get too far ahead of myself going with a cheaper receiver and a separate amp. As far as Power goes my neighbors an electrician and this rack is in my furnace room so I can get as much as is needed.
I don’t need or necessarily want massive volume . My desire is for moderate listening levels but I want the clearest and best sound possible for watching tv and movies. 9.2 channel receivers are dirt cheap right now. Here’s what I’m looking at. I particularly like the look of the Marantz 7011 with a power amp for the front 2-3 channels.

https://gibbyselectronicsupermarket.ca/page/1/?orderby=price&post_type=product&s=9.2+B-stock

Lots to think about but everyone’s input is really making this much easier.

Cheers,
CBASS

It might be easier if you consider the Canadian pricing on D Vs M

Gibby's B stock:
SR7011 - $999.99
SR7012 - $1899.99
AVR-X4400H - $879.99
AVR-6300H - $1599.99
AV7703 - $1699.99

All 3 have identical (to the letter) audio/video specifications. Magazine bench test results also looked virtually the same.

From the pictures below, you can see that the 4400 and 7012 are indeed more similar than different. Each has their own marketing hypes, such as HDAM, AL32 etc., in my experience, that don't make them sound audibly different though in my opinion that is actually a good thing. The Marantz models have mch analog inputs that most people don't need.

 

[CBASS]

Awesome,

Thanks for taking the time to point that out. So I think we are getting to the sweet spot. Everything I need minus some of the latest bells and whistles. No issue upgrading a thousand dollar AVR in the next couple of years if need be as there’s a limited investment and no buyers remorse. I can Power 11.2 channels for around a thousand vs a few thousand. Personally I find this awesome. Of course this relies on finding a good value priced 2 channel amp but I’ll determine the receiver first.

So if these are for all intents and purposes the same from a sound and performance perspective I’ll go with the two cheapest and determine if one has a better bell and whistle set than the other. Narrowed down to “drum roll please”

Gibby's B stock:
SR7011 - $999.99
AVR-X4400H - $879.99

Thanks again everyone, this is an enjoyable exercise and I’m learning that with a little knowledge you can drastically reduce your AV budget and still get great results.

Cheers,
CBASS

 

[CBASS]

Not much difference between the SR 7011 and the AVR X-4400HI’m not sure if this is important but in my opinion it may be better to have a receiver with discrete sub outputs. I don’t care about digital radio no idea if NEO6 is something I require but I doubt it. Leaning towards the Denon right now.

https://www.crutchfield.ca/S-mbc32Zh6L2O/compare_033AVX4400_642SR7011/Denon-AVR-X4400H-IN-Command-vs-Marantz-SR7011.html

 

[PENG]

Awesome,

Thanks for taking the time to point that out. So I think we are getting to the sweet spot. Everything I need minus some of the latest bells and whistles. No issue upgrading a thousand dollar AVR in the next couple of years if need be as there’s a limited investment and no buyers remorse. I can Power 11.2 channels for around a thousand vs a few thousand. Personally I find this awesome. Of course this relies on finding a good value priced 2 channel amp but I’ll determine the receiver first.

So if these are for all intents and purposes the same from a sound and performance perspective I’ll go with the two cheapest and determine if one has a better bell and whistle set than the other. Narrowed down to “drum roll please”

Gibby's B stock:
SR7011 - $999.99
AVR-X4400H - $879.99

Thanks again everyone, this is an enjoyable exercise and I’m learning that with a little knowledge you can drastically reduce your AV budget and still get great results.

Cheers,
CBASS

In that case I would go with the $879.99 AVR-X4400H that is still a current model, though the X4500H should be out really soon. You may also try to secure on that is brand new but has minor damage to the box, and that's what @jim got from Gibby's, irrc for about $50 more. Being 2 years old, the SR7011's firmware support may not be as good, for example, iirc you won't get the eARC upgrade that the 7012 and 4400 are getting.

 

[CBASS]

Think that’s the way I’m headed. Unless somebody comes bye with some serious reason not to go with the Denon the X 4400 is the winner.

Now onto the best and cheapest 2 channel amp I can buy that is going to give the required performance.

I’m assuming the speakers driven off the external amp will be the overhead or the rears. Id like to keep the amp around 100.00 as the whole goal of this is most bang for the buck. That gives me a good system with 11.2 channels for about a grand.
What is the minimum wattage required and features of a 2 channel amp to run in a system such as this? Parts express has many as does amazon. No idea what to be looking for. 60 Watts, 100 watts? External amps are completely foreign to me.

Thanks again,

CBASS

 

[CBASS]

Here’s the speakers and specs I’ll be driving for overheads and rears. I went for price for inwall surrounds as well... their inwall lol. Unlikely you will ever have heard of them but I got them for a good price and they sounded on par with the Klipsch and Polks so that’s what’s going in....at least for now .

https://www.soundstage-audio.com/bpc8
https://www.soundstage-audio.com/bplcr

 

[CBASS]

I’ve got an old AVR3802 collecting dust. Maybe this is my additional power amp. No idea if that’s possible or even recommended.

 

[PENG]

Here’s the speakers and specs I’ll be driving for overheads and rears. I went for price for inwall surrounds as well... their inwall lol. Unlikely you will ever have heard of them but I got them for a good price and they sounded on par with the Klipsch and Polks so that’s what’s going in....at least for now .

https://www.soundstage-audio.com/bpc8
https://www.soundstage-audio.com/bplcr

If you are getting that Parts Express 60 W amp, you should use it to drive the BPLCR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So one of the questions is should I go with a receiver or a preamp with external amplifiers.

Popular question. Might check out some opinions on AVR vs. Separates Pre-pro + Amps.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-separates-vs-avr-thread.110901/

A major argument against AVR is that they horseshoe too much crap inside a little chassis - like put 11 channels of amps inside the case.

But unless the Pre-pros look more like the Theta Digital Casablanca or DataSAT/ATI ATP16 pre-pros, and a lot less like the Denon AVP-A1HDCI and other Pre-pros that also cram the kitchen sink inside the chassis, I think it makes little difference.

Grassy and I both bought the $7,500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre-pro about 8 years ago. And both of our AVP-A1HDCI pre-pros are dead. Coincidence?

 

[-Jim-]

CBass, thanks for the photo. Your geometry seems very similar to mine. Now that you've cut the holes, you are definitely into 7.2.4, or at least the speakers. How far forward will you be sitting ahead of the rear Atmos speakers? I suspect the addition or loss either rear effects speakers will be a small impact in your room (like mine).

I know you are on a roll, but you may want to get everything else wired, purchased, and installed before buying the secondary amp. (Including furniture.) As you are going in-wall /ceiling for all but the Fronts, any of those can be driven by a decent 50 Watts per channel amp. If you have an old Amp/Receiver, you may want to try that as a test before going down a separate Amp road. That's my plan anyway.

Your Front Speakers should be the main focus now IMHO. I looked at SVS Prime and they are impressive based on the Reviews. The best deal I found on them in Canada was at Electronics For Less but the center is almost $1,000 and the L&R bookshelf speakers are $700 each. SVS has few distributors in Canada (none here out west) and restricts their special promotions to USA customers only. If you could accomodate 3 Ultra bookshelf for the Fronts, you'd save $$ and it would sound better too. Of course their towers would give the best sound (although not by much according to other forum members who went from the bookshelf Ultras to them). They are $2800 for the pair.

I've decided on three of the HSU CCB-8s as the reviews are off the chart, you can rotate the center speaker with no ill effect (so it fits on my entertainment unit below the TV without having to jack the TV up too high) and the cost is about $1500 CAD ($1154 USD) sent to Point Roberts nearby where my mother lives.

They did quote me to ship to Canada (in USD) below.

Product Name Qty
---------------------------------------------------
3.0 CCB-8 Speaker Pkg SB 1 $1039.00

Subtotal 1039.00
Shipping 215.88
Taxes & Duties 252.15
Total $1507.03

This works out to about $1960 CAD.

I haven't pulled the trigger on these yet as I need to see what the possible Duty & taxes are if I go pick them up from Point Roberts, Washington. (I need to visit Mom from time to time anyway & she lives in Tsawaswassen, BC =>5 minutes away from the border.) I've also been swamped with work, and other issues around the house to focus on the system for a while.

Hopefully my research can save you a few hours of effort.

 

[PENG]

I’ve got an old AVR3802 collecting dust. Maybe this is my additional power amp. No idea if that’s possible or even recommended.

If it is in good working order, and you have the room, don't mind the inconvenience/complexity to hook it up as a power amp, then do it. A comparable two channel power amp would cost you at least $500.

 

[CBASS]

Makes sense. With technology evolving so rapidly I’m going with a cheaper AVR and I’m going to drive 2 channels with an external amp. Who knows in a few years maybe I’m driving more separates as I upgrade receivers and speakers. I thought about using my old AVR as an amp but I’m quite sure that means manually switching it on and off and I’m not going to bother with that.
So I’m down to a the best bang for buck 2 channel amp I can use to effectively incorporate into this system. If it cost a couple hundred so be it. I’m saving a massive amount going with an older 9.2 receiver.
Any suggestions for 2 channel amps would be appreciated. I think one necessary feature would be auto on and off. Other than that I have no idea on what is going to not be so cheap as to be a headache or disappointment and not so expensive I may as well run a more expensive AVR. I’d say 200.00 dollars max give or take would be in the ballpark if it’s doable.

Cheers,
CBASS

 

[CBASS]

If it is in good working order, and you have the room, don't mind the inconvenience/complexity to hook it up as a power amp, then do it. A comparable two channel power amp would cost you at least $500.

Oh, well maybe that’s worth considering then. It was the power on and off that I thought would be a nuisance as it’s going to be sitting on a rack in my furnace room.

Cheers,
CBASS

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now that you've cut the holes, you are definitely into 7.2.4, or at least the speakers.

Would it be easier to just cover up the drywall holes and save some money?

What is the size of this room?

 

[lovinthehd]

Not much difference between the SR 7011 and the AVR X-4400HI’m not sure if this is important but in my opinion it may be better to have a receiver with discrete sub outputs. I don’t care about digital radio no idea if NEO6 is something I require but I doubt it. Leaning towards the Denon right now.

https://www.crutchfield.ca/S-mbc32Zh6L2O/compare_033AVX4400_642SR7011/Denon-AVR-X4400H-IN-Command-vs-Marantz-SR7011.html

Both of those have the SubEQ feature of Audyssey, so they can each handle two subs with separate settings for delay and level (then XT32 eq's them together). DTS Neo:6 is just a sound mode/upmixer but from the brief look I took, they both have DTS Neo:X, tho (a later version essentially).