11.2 system from scratch, well mostly

[CBASS]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been watching the YouTube videos with Gene and company in them and find them to be a very good source of down to earth information. Looks like the contributors to this forum are also quite engaged and knowledgeable so I thought I’d put up a few questions.
I’m just finishing my basement and have prewired for an 11.2 system. I’ve got a rather eclectic selection of speakers other than the extra sub for the room so far.
I want the best heart of the system I can afford.
This is a budget build but I’ve been finding some good deals on refurbished Marantz and Denon receivers and preamps. i.e. Marantz AV 7704, Marantz SR8012, Denon AVR 6400H etc.
So one of the questions is should I go with a receiver or a preamp with external amplifiers.
I am very unfamiliar with preamp systems and external amplifiers from a cost/performance perspective.
As an example I can buy a Marantz AV 7702 for a thousand dollars and buy external amps or I could buy SR 8012 for 2500.00.

Thanks for the help
CBASS

 

[lovinthehd]

You could also start with an avr, and it need not be the top of the line, that has pre-outs so you can add amplification as needed afterwards. What are your speakers, your distance from them and what spl levels do you wish to achieve? Might try using an spl calculator to get an idea of your needs amplification-wise for your speakers. You likely can use an avr as pre-pro and just amplify the mains (and maybe some surrounds with a 5 or 7ch amp) and use the avr for remaining surrounds, but buying all 11 channels of amp can get expensive...what amps were you considering? Just what speaker sets do you have?

 

[sholling]

Unless your speakers are particularly hard to drive I'd go with an AVR to start with and only add external amps (via pre-outs on the receiver) if you find that you really do need them.

 

[Verdinut]

Unless your speakers are particularly hard to drive I'd go with an AVR to start with and only add external amps (via pre-outs on the receiver) if you find that you really do need them.

It would be good to add that not all AVRs have all channel pre-outs. Getting one with this feature is always a good idea for any possible future need.

 

[sholling]

It would be good to add that not all AVRs have all channel pre-outs. Getting one with this feature is always a good idea for any possible future need.

True, and some have more pre-outs than they have internal amps.

 

[CBASS]

Thanks very much for the replies everyone. I figured an AVR would likely be the answer vs separates. As long as I have preouts I can always Power the larger speakers. Here’s my collage of speakers and the room. You get a better idea from the picture above. I am shooting the pic of the room from my screen.

Room 17X14-9 foot ceilings
Sitting position is approximately 7 feet between all surrounds and in the center of the four overhead speakers 9 feet above me. Sitting area is 12 feet from the screen end of the room.

Centre channel -Paradigm CC-370
Front towers - 2 paradigm monitor 7 v2.0
1 sub so far- paradigm PW-2200
Rear and side - Soundstage dual 5.25 speaker
Height speakers - Soundstage 8” ceiling speaker

I’ve listened to the soundstage at the store in comparison to Polk and Klipsch and honestly thought they were pretty decent. For what I paid they will do. I believe JBL is making them but it’s a bit of a mystery to be honest lol.

The receiver Im considering Buying is the Marantz SR 8012. Right now I can get a refurb for 2500.00
I’m certainly open to suggestions though. When you are doing 11.2 it’s pretty hard to get a cheap receiver.

Cheers,
CBASS

 

[everettT]

I'd see what the price of the denon 6300 is or the 4400 is with a 3 channel amp and put the savings towards better fronts or a much better sub

 

[CBASS]

Speakers are easy changeouts for me. These speakers are getting pretty long in the tooth. Is that why your recommending changing them? What would the “perfect” center and L/R be on a budget?

 

[everettT]

Speakers are easy changeouts for me. These speakers are getting pretty long in the tooth. Is that why your recommending changing them? What would the “perfect” center and L/R be on a budget?

Not sure what your "on a budget" equates to in dollars. For me budget front 3 would be around 1500. Are you able to do 3 identical?

 

[CBASS]

1500 is certainly doable if I go with a denon 6300 vs the Marantz SR8012

 

[PENG]

1500 is certainly doable if I go with a denon 6300 vs the Marantz SR8012

After two prepros including a Marantz flag ship, I went with the 4400 so from now on I can afford to replace it every 3 to 4 years. I think the 6300 and 6400 if available at deep discounts, are good choices especially if made in Japan and better build quality are what you are after. $2500 for the new 8012 is a very good deal, but still too much money imo, unless you want to keep it for a very long time but if anything happens after 3 years then you may wish you hadn't invested so much on an AVR.

D&M seems to still support the 4300, 6300 and 7011, with FW updates including the significant (to some people) ones such as Apple Airplay 2, but not eARC, and only if the linked list below is credible. I wonder if our insider @M Code can confirm that.. If you want/need eARC, then the X4400H or X6400H are the choices.

https://www.pooraudiophile.com/2018/05/marantz-denon-airplay2-receivers-sound-bars.html

 

[CBASS]

Ok so I’m sensing a trend here which is a bit contrary to what I had thought. I thought the flagship Marantz, Denon, ot Yamaha would be somewhat futureproof. I.e. 10 years. I thought buying the best of the best right now would give me a good platform to build around. I’m getting the impression that’s likely not the case as technology is moving so fast.
Seems as though opinion is that I should be looking for a heavily discounted previous year version 11.2 amp that gets me where I need to be.
That doesn’t hurt my feelings. I’m really about end result. I want to watch tv and movies with the full surround effect... or as close as I can get.

This kind of goes back to the question of buying power amps if AVR receivers are needing replacement every few years. Seems as though the preamps come cheaper than the full blown receiver. Pay a bit more now for power but give yourself more flexibility in the future to swap out processors.

I really appreciate the insight. I’ll post pictures of the room as it gets finished in the coming weeks and I’ll hunt for some barely 11.2 amps and see what I come up with.

Cheers,
CBASS

 

[everettT]

I'd look at these for mains,
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html
With this center
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/PhilMTMCenter.html

 

[CBASS]

Well everyone your going to save me a lot of money. There is no shortage of heavily discounted 9.2 receivers out there that can process 11 channels with an amp attached. Of course I have no idea of what type of amp or watts per channel etc but I think this is a good direction to go. Baby steps lol.

Thanks again,
CBASS

 

[PENG]

This kind of goes back to the question of buying power amps if AVR receivers are needing replacement every few years. Seems as though the preamps come cheaper than the full blown receiver. Pay a bit more now for power but give yourself more flexibility in the future to swap out processors.

Wait..., there are caveats, let me give you some bullet points to consider:

- If you are happy with 5 to 7 channels, a previous year model with deep discount can work because you would only need a 5 channel power amp.

- For 7.1.2, 7.1.4 and above, imo AVRs have an edge because you can use some of the build in amp for the surround channels, plus a 3 to 5 channel external amps such as the affordable and powerful Monolith 5X200.

- Good multichannel class AB power amps (most of the affordable ones are class AB) are heavy and bulky, 70-100 lbs.

- The combined power rating of such multichannel amps are deceiving, for movie enjoyment I dare say most of the time you really can't benefit from much more than what a powerful AVR can offer. Your bottleneck for those powerful amps are you 15 A outlet, and the fact that in a medium size room such as yours, only a few watt average, and 30-100 watts peak would be output regardless of how powerful the amp is.

To see that for yourself, try an online calculator such as the one linked below:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

In your 17X14 ft room, you probably won't sit further than 11 ft from the speakers, assuming the nominal impedance of the Monitor 7 v2 is 6 ohms instead of the specified 8 ohms, your would need about 125 watts X2 to get the THX reference peak of 105 dB spl, the 6300 can certainly do at least 150 W average into 6 ohm or 300 W peak. THX ref level is cinema loud, so I would say you can easily get away with using the AVR without external amps, or simply add a Monolith 5X200 for the main channels, so you can feel better; and with the unused extra power on hand, you will likely still "hear" more punchy bass, deeper sound stage etc..

If you go with the AVP route, to be comparable to the 6300 you need to get the AV7703. That would be sort of paying more, for less.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Cbass,

Welcome to the forum. Just a heads up that both Peng & I recently purchased a Denon AVR-X4400H, so we are up to speed on this. (For my setup see Denon AVR-X4400H - Initial Setup ) The 4400 has 9 channels of amplification, but it can process 11. You can connect an external amplifier for any pair of speakers you'd want to drive. Even though I installed 4 in-ceiling speakers, and moved the rest from a 6.1 setup to a 7.2 resulting in a potential 11.2, or 7.2.4 in Dolby Atmos parlance.

My logic is I wasn't sold on the impact of immersive sound using 13 speakers for my room (which is of similar size to yours),and difference in price for a Denon 4400 and the Denon AVR-X6400H; was the 4400 was about half the price of the 6400. So I opted for the 4400, and plan to buy 3 HSU CCB-8 speakers to replace my aged fronts with the difference. There is an App you can get for the Denons which allow you to save different setup configurations, so you can easily go from say a 5.2.4 to a 7.2.2, etc.

Another concern is the physical difference between the rear surrounds, and the rear in-ceiling speakers in my room (which is similar in size to yours) meet Dolby standards (at least as far as I know),but they certainly seem close to each other. I'm really not certain how impactful a 7.2.4 will be versus a 5.2.4, or a 7.2.2 with only the front in-ceiling speakers. I think you too should consider this.

However, if you've got $2500 and want the simplicity of an all in one AVR now (which will be more convenient) I'd suggest the Denon AVR-X6400H. If you are in the USA, and not adverse to B Stock (I'm not) try this $1600 USD deal at Accessories4Less - 6400H Deal If you are in Canada a similar $1900 CAD deal is at Gibbys Gibby's 6400 Receiver Deal

I hope this is helpful.

 

[sholling]

I usually get at least 6-10 years out of my mid to upper-mid-range receivers before feature creep tempts me to upgrade and buy the next big thing. But yes, buying a new receiver is always a bet that nothing you can't live without or work around is coming out in a few years. Bluetooth, network music playback, and Chromecast all had easy workarounds via my ShieldTV and a BT receiver. Even 4K has a workaround via ARC and in my case it took a great sale on an AVR-X4400H to tempt me to upgrade from a 6+ year old receiver. As for software/firmware updates, it's something I see as a bonus if or when they are offered, but not something I count on ever showing up. It's pretty rare for any company to invest money in firmware/software improvements for products they don't sell anymore, although some sometimes do for a couple of years.

 

[CBASS]

Thanks,

I’m in Canada so Gibbeys or Newegg is where I’m looking. B-stock is all I’m looking at. I’ve heard the overhead speakers in small rooms before and actually liked what they added. At any rate the holes are cut as you can see in the picture so 7.2.4 it is .

I’m not too worried about absolute simplicity. I want the most bang for the buck. I have to look at what a 2 or 3 channel amp is going to cost before I get too far ahead of myself going with a cheaper receiver and a separate amp. As far as Power goes my neighbors an electrician and this rack is in my furnace room so I can get as much as is needed.
I don’t need or necessarily want massive volume . My desire is for moderate listening levels but I want the clearest and best sound possible for watching tv and movies. 9.2 channel receivers are dirt cheap right now. Here’s what I’m looking at. I particularly like the look of the Marantz 7011 with a power amp for the front 2-3 channels.

https://gibbyselectronicsupermarket.ca/page/1/?orderby=price&post_type=product&s=9.2+B-stock



Lots to think about but everyone’s input is really making this much easier.

Cheers,
CBASS

 

[CBASS]

I'd look at these for mains,
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html
With this center
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/PhilMTMCenter.html

Look nice. I’ll do some research but I’m guessing the shipping up to Canada would be cost prohibitive for me. Likely will be buying second hand if I’m going to upgrade. Now it’s a whole other debate about what type of mains and Centre channel to get. This will be something Ill do after I’ve determined the receiver, have it all hooked up and have some sound coming out lol.

 

[CBASS]

I usually get at least 6-10 years out of my mid to upper-mid-range receivers before feature creep tempts me to upgrade and buy the next big thing. But yes, buying a new receiver is always a bet that nothing you can't live without or work around is coming out in a few years. Bluetooth, network music playback, and Chromecast all had easy workarounds via my ShieldTV and a BT receiver. Even 4K has a workaround via ARC and in my case it took a great sale on an AVR-X4400H to tempt me to upgrade from a 6+ year old receiver. As for software/firmware updates, it's something I see as a bonus if or when they are offered, but not something I count on ever showing up. It's pretty rare for any company to invest money in firmware/software improvements for products they don't sell anymore, although some sometimes do for a couple of years.

That makes complete sense. If I can save a G right now and get things moving with an older receiver and a 2-3 channel amp it seems like a good way to go from what I’m hearing.

Thanks