How low do does a subwoofer really need to go?

[snakeeyes]

Bass is addictive, sure. I don’t think I’m a monster for spending $750 on a sub and using it every day. Might even add a second one in a few months. I could stop but I won’t stop. Part of it is I hate the distortion when bad subs or small subs distort and ruin the sound effects in movies. I don’t have perfect hearing at age 42 but still I hear pretty good.

 

[Danzilla31]

We aren't addicts- we can stop anytime we want. No, really. Seriously!

How long have you been at this- I mean, how long since you heard a really great system? If you're relatively new to it, I would bet that you'll gradually change your views on strong bass because you'll realize that it's not realistic, just sensational. Your listening ability and focus will also change- hearing isn't listening. In addition, our mind is a very powerful participant in this- if we know a piece of music and have heard it sound differently, possibly sounding better than we normally hear, our mind will often 'fill in the blanks' for us. It can end the need for extreme levels in certain frequency ranges and the idea that it needs to be loud in order to sound good. You would be surprised by the amount of detail that can be heard at extremely low levels when we actually listen for it.

FWIW- I had a pair of 30" ElectroVoice woofers- I gave up on having that kind of bass when I sold them. It's not that it was a lot, it just sounded really, really good and it was deep. Still, that was before home theater and they were originally used for the bass pedals of a church organ, so it needed to be smooth.

It was a joke actually I'd say more passionate then addicted if you want me to be serious although I do love the sub upgrade. But honestly for the total quality it brought not just 20hz. I'm not just about loudness but I like quality for the dollar if we're being real. I'm running 3 SVS Primes for F L R with 2 PB 2000's the rest are Elan Theater Points for surround and backs a discontinued line that went under a lottof people's radars I scored a great deal for those on Craigslist and they match good for the Primes an Onkyo TXNR809 I scored a great deal with on Craigslist. I'm learning and building my system as I go along once my budget has the room for it I'm going separates and power amps and then upgrading to all SVS speakers. I've listened to many many speakers and FOR ME I can only speak for me they offer the best bang for your buck in the areas I want. As somebody mentioned above if you have the cash and can go all the way with this 20,000 30,000 whatever and your happy FOR YOU I'm happy for you and I hope I become your best friend and get to listen to your system ALL THE TIME Lol. Me? I'm going to go as high as I can realistically go high volume low volume everywhere and have a hella good time with it along the way!

 

[Danzilla31]

Bass is addictive, sure. I don’t think I’m a monster for spending $750 on a sub and using it every day. Might even add a second one in a few months. I could stop but I won’t stop. Part of it is I hate the distortion when bad subs or small subs distort and ruin the sound effects in movies. I don’t have perfect hearing at age 42 but still I hear pretty good.

Amen my brother Amen! Hey I'm 43 were still rocking it bro! Well have to share some ideas as we keep going with this because you got a lottoff viewpoints and insights I agree with I enjoy your contributions and am looking 4ward to hearing more from you.

 

[Danzilla31]

We aren't addicts- we can stop anytime we want. No, really. Seriously!

How long have you been at this- I mean, how long since you heard a really great system? If you're relatively new to it, I would bet that you'll gradually change your views on strong bass because you'll realize that it's not realistic, just sensational. Your listening ability and focus will also change- hearing isn't listening. In addition, our mind is a very powerful participant in this- if we know a piece of music and have heard it sound differently, possibly sounding better than we normally hear, our mind will often 'fill in the blanks' for us. It can end the need for extreme levels in certain frequency ranges and the idea that it needs to be loud in order to sound good. You would be surprised by the amount of detail that can be heard at extremely low levels when we actually listen for it.

FWIW- I had a pair of 30" ElectroVoice woofers- I gave up on having that kind of bass when I sold them. It's not that it was a lot, it just sounded really, really good and it was deep. Still, that was before home theater and they were originally used for the bass pedals of a church organ, so it needed to be smooth.

P.S. those speakers spund like they were really cool wish I could have heard them!

 

[Verdinut]

We aren't addicts- we can stop anytime we want. No, really. Seriously!

How long have you been at this- I mean, how long since you heard a really great system? If you're relatively new to it, I would bet that you'll gradually change your views on strong bass because you'll realize that it's not realistic, just sensational. Your listening ability and focus will also change- hearing isn't listening. In addition, our mind is a very powerful participant in this- if we know a piece of music and have heard it sound differently, possibly sounding better than we normally hear, our mind will often 'fill in the blanks' for us. It can end the need for extreme levels in certain frequency ranges and the idea that it needs to be loud in order to sound good. You would be surprised by the amount of detail that can be heard at extremely low levels when we actually listen for it.

FWIW- I had a pair of 30" ElectroVoice woofers- I gave up on having that kind of bass when I sold them. It's not that it was a lot, it just sounded really, really good and it was deep. Still, that was before home theater and they were originally used for the bass pedals of a church organ, so it needed to be smooth.

I heard about those 30" woofers but never had the chance to really hear them. . That was well before the release of real subs that could go down even lower. Those huge woofers also needed a huge enclosure and I guess they were horn loaded just like their 15" predecessors in the Patrician cabinets.
By the way, I am curious. How was their transient response as compared to a good 15" transducer such as the Altec 416?

 

[KEW]

I'm learning and building my system as I go along once my budget has the room for it I'm going separates and power amps and then upgrading to all SVS speakers.

If you are after sound quality, I would advise you to upgrade your speakers to Ultras before getting separates.
I assume you have read some of the debates about separates vs AVR's. Regardless of your opinion on that debate, one of your takeaways should be that there is an honest debate among people who are obsessive about sound and experienced with audio.
In contrast, you will find no one, and I mean literally no one, who would debate that the Ultra series does not provide substantial improvement over the Prime series! You can use your current Primes as surrounds.
Don't misunderstand - the Primes are fine speakers for what they cost, but if you are going to spend more money, speakers are the place to upgrade! That Onkyo of yours has a solid THX rated 135 WPC amp in it, going to separates will not yield nearly as dramatic of an improvement as better speakers.

 

[Danzilla31]

If you are after sound quality, I would advise you to upgrade your speakers to Ultras before getting separates.
I assume you have read some of the debates about separates vs AVR's. Regardless of your opinion on that debate, one of your takeaways should be that there is an honest debate among people who are obsessive about sound and experienced with audio.
In contrast, you will find no one, and I mean literally no one, who would debate that the Ultra series does not provide substantial improvement over the Prime series! You can use your current Primes as surrounds.
Don't misunderstand - the Primes are fine speakers for what they cost, but if you are going to spend more money, speakers are the place to upgrade! That Onkyo of yours has a solid THX rated 135 WPC amp in it, going to separates will not yield nearly as dramatic of an improvement as better speakers.

Hey what's going on KEW good to hear from you! Everything you said is exactly the plan my friend you just predicted my audio future Lol. My plan is using SVS's upgrade plan to go to the ultra's next year. Or maybe just buying them and as you said saving the Primes for surrounds. Then and only then when the speakers are perfect then I'll see if I want separates. Along the way tho I'll defiantly be hitting you and everyone else up for advice as needed. Hope you've been well

 

[Danzilla31]

If you are after sound quality, I would advise you to upgrade your speakers to Ultras before getting separates.
I assume you have read some of the debates about separates vs AVR's. Regardless of your opinion on that debate, one of your takeaways should be that there is an honest debate among people who are obsessive about sound and experienced with audio.
In contrast, you will find no one, and I mean literally no one, who would debate that the Ultra series does not provide substantial improvement over the Prime series! You can use your current Primes as surrounds.
Don't misunderstand - the Primes are fine speakers for what they cost, but if you are going to spend more money, speakers are the place to upgrade! That Onkyo of yours has a solid THX rated 135 WPC amp in it, going to separates will not yield nearly as dramatic of an improvement as better speakers.

Lol meant to say definitely not defiantly

 

[KEW]

Good to see you are still kickin'!
Hey, I forgot about SVS's great upgrade plan!
Honestly, I would buy these for the surrounds and return the Primes since you have that option!
I'm not saying that these are better speakers than the Primes, but this is one of those deals that you aren't going to beat, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were every bit as good as the Primes for the performance needs of surrounds (since they were designed specifically to be surrounds instead of a full range speaker):
https://www.amazon.com/JBL-Bookshelf-Surround-Speaker-Special/dp/B01EYJZYQ2/?tag=dealnewscom&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER
$79/pair on closeout from $199/pr!
Note that this is a sealed design! All you need is a screw in the wall (and maybe felt for the back, but I suspect JBL provides some type of pad to prevent vibration).
Also this is a closeout - they won't be around forever. Also Amazon Prime, so easy return if they don't work out for you for some reason.
Hopefully that will save you enough money to get those Ultras sooner rather than later!

 

[sholling]

Three things come into play in deciding how deep is deep enough.

1) Environment: If you live in an apartment or condo then it makes no sense to add deep driving bass when it's just going to get you evicted or fined by the condo association. When I lived in apartments and condos I went without subs and when I wanted more volume I put on my headphones.

2) What you watch and listen to: Few if any romantic comedies, sitcoms, or dramas have any really deep bass. That's also true of most music and by that I mean little rock, pop, jazz or classical music has much content that dips much below 30hz. On the other hand there is some music that dips really deep, including some exotic organ music that goes so low (below 20hz) that parts of it can only be felt not heard. And let's not forget action movies. If that's your taste then (budget and environment allowing) you'll want a sub that will dip to 20hz or lower with authority.

3) Budget: The choice of the front three speakers are the most important decision in building an audio system. Depending on speaker selection and taste in music and/or movies then subwoofers can be the second most important decision - including whether or not you need one (see 1&2).

Once you've sorted out the first three the the size of the environment comes into play: Subwoofer work by creating minute changes in air pressure in an entire sealed-off space. In other words, if you're trying for deep authoritative in (for example) a 10,000 cubic foot room or a room with open windows then that 9" sub is going to be overwhelmed (think 'fart in the wind'). It just can't move enough air to be effective. You can still use it near field (right next to you) but it won't fill a large room with deep bass.

Thankfully I now live in a detached home because I have eclectic taste in music and like movies with lots of BANGS and BOOMS.

As for AVRs vs separates I would just stick with AVRs until you're in an environment that supports great speakers and a great sub(s) and then maybe stay with the AVRs. Going from a good AVR to separates will give you about the least bang for the buck improvement. There are exceptions such as if you really need more power, but short of that most people will never hear a difference.

 

[Danzilla31]

Good to see you are still kickin'!
Hey, I forgot about SVS's great upgrade plan!
Honestly, I would buy these for the surrounds and return the Primes since you have that option!
I'm not saying that these are better speakers than the Primes, but this is one of those deals that you aren't going to beat, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were every bit as good as the Primes for the performance needs of surrounds (since they were designed specifically to be surrounds instead of a full range speaker):
https://www.amazon.com/JBL-Bookshelf-Surround-Speaker-Special/dp/B01EYJZYQ2/?tag=dealnewscom&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER
$79/pair on closeout from $199/pr!
Note that this is a sealed design! All you need is a screw in the wall (and maybe felt for the back, but I suspect JBL provides some type of pad to prevent vibration).
Also this is a closeout - they won't be around forever. Also Amazon Prime, so easy return if they don't work out for you for some reason.
Hopefully that will save you enough money to get those Ultras sooner rather than later!

hey my friend those are intriguing for the price im glad you brought up some good ideas for the system In on a different device and I'm going to hopefully upload some pictures for some reason I can't from my phone cus I have a question I could use your help with but it will help if you can see the room well here goes with the pics

 

[Danzilla31]

Good to see you are still kickin'!
Hey, I forgot about SVS's great upgrade plan!
Honestly, I would buy these for the surrounds and return the Primes since you have that option!
I'm not saying that these are better speakers than the Primes, but this is one of those deals that you aren't going to beat, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were every bit as good as the Primes for the performance needs of surrounds (since they were designed specifically to be surrounds instead of a full range speaker):
https://www.amazon.com/JBL-Bookshelf-Surround-Speaker-Special/dp/B01EYJZYQ2/?tag=dealnewscom&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER
$79/pair on closeout from $199/pr!
Note that this is a sealed design! All you need is a screw in the wall (and maybe felt for the back, but I suspect JBL provides some type of pad to prevent vibration).
Also this is a closeout - they won't be around forever. Also Amazon Prime, so easy return if they don't work out for you for some reason.
Hopefully that will save you enough money to get those Ultras sooner rather than later!

Yes finally it worked! Ok one didn't but here goes those JBL's would help but my issue is you can see the openness of the floor plan and the arches although beautiful are just killing me. Because you can't put the surrounds and the backs about 2 feet above ear level cuz there are no walls they're and on the right it's two giant Windows that's the picture that wouldn't upload. So I'm using my elan theaterpoint THP 650LS as surrounds and backs sonically they match up good with the primes and they're piano gloss finish is georgeous. Matches the primes they're sealed with 2 6.5 drivers and a tweeter but they're big so a nightmare to wall mount. It sounds pretty damn good but here's my question cuz with better placement it could sound better. I like the jbls but I'm thinking of using SVS Prime elevations in those arched walls cuz I can position them better in the right spots for surround speakers just up higher because they're designed to work around that. Then upgrade to the ultra towers in the front. Then use Prime elevations in my ceiling someday when I wanna do atmos dts etc etc down the road. Also I may upgrade the front subs cuz that's a lotta space or put 2 PC 2000's for a near field effect right behind those couches they'll fit perfect there. Then and only then someday will I decide if separates and power amps will be necessary. What do you think I could really use some observations and viewpoints from you guys and I always really enjoy your input any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

 

[Danzilla31]

Three things come into play in deciding how deep is deep enough.

1) Environment: If you live in an apartment or condo then it makes no sense to add deep driving bass when it's just going to get you evicted or fined by the condo association. When I lived in apartments and condos I went without subs and when I wanted more volume I put on my headphones.

2) What you watch and listen to: Few if any romantic comedies, sitcoms, or dramas have any really deep bass. That's also true of most music and by that I mean little rock, pop, jazz or classical music has much content that dips much below 30hz. On the other hand there is some music that dips really deep, including some exotic organ music that goes so low (below 20hz) that parts of it can only be felt not heard. And let's not forget action movies. If that's your taste then (budget and environment allowing) you'll want a sub that will dip to 20hz or lower with authority.

3) Budget: The choice of the front three speakers are the most important decision in building an audio system. Depending on speaker selection and taste in music and/or movies then subwoofers can be the second most important decision - including whether or not you need one (see 1&2).

Once you've sorted out the first three the the size of the environment comes into play: Subwoofer work by creating minute changes in air pressure in an entire sealed-off space. In other words, if you're trying for deep authoritative in (for example) a 10,000 cubic foot room or a room with open windows then that 9" sub is going to be overwhelmed (think 'fart in the wind'). It just can't move enough air to be effective. You can still use it near field (right next to you) but it won't fill a large room with deep bass.

Thankfully I now live in a detached home because I have eclectic taste in music and like movies with lots of BANGS and BOOMS.

As for AVRs vs separates I would just stick with AVRs until you're in an environment that supports great speakers and a great sub(s) and then maybe stay with the AVRs. Going from a good AVR to separates will give you about the least bang for the buck improvement. There are exceptions such as if you really need more power, but short of that most people will never hear a difference.

That's a really good point I keep obsessing on separates but it makes to build the rest then decide if they're necessary from theyre. Great point man thanks

 

[Danzilla31]

Good to see you are still kickin'!
Hey, I forgot about SVS's great upgrade plan!
Honestly, I would buy these for the surrounds and return the Primes since you have that option!
I'm not saying that these are better speakers than the Primes, but this is one of those deals that you aren't going to beat, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were every bit as good as the Primes for the performance needs of surrounds (since they were designed specifically to be surrounds instead of a full range speaker):
https://www.amazon.com/JBL-Bookshelf-Surround-Speaker-Special/dp/B01EYJZYQ2/?tag=dealnewscom&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER
$79/pair on closeout from $199/pr!
Note that this is a sealed design! All you need is a screw in the wall (and maybe felt for the back, but I suspect JBL provides some type of pad to prevent vibration).
Also this is a closeout - they won't be around forever. Also Amazon Prime, so easy return if they don't work out for you for some reason.
Hopefully that will save you enough money to get those Ultras sooner rather than later!

P.S. I'm thinking 2 PB 2000's in the front and 2 PC 2000's in the back near field nearfield all on Y splitters hopefully is enough like I said it's a big area so I don't know but buying 2 of those PC 2000's is cheaper then upgrading higher and then buying 2 more subs for behind the couches anyways hope I didn't talk your ear off Lol

 

[snakeeyes]

If he gets four of the PC4000 subs, do we worry? LOL

 

[Danzilla31]

If he gets four of the PC4000 subs, do we worry? LOL

I repeat I AM NOT ADDICTED! LOL

 

[Irvrobinson]

Three things come into play in deciding how deep is deep enough.

1) Environment: If you live in an apartment or condo then it makes no sense to add deep driving bass when it's just going to get you evicted or fined by the condo association. When I lived in apartments and condos I went without subs and when I wanted more volume I put on my headphones.

I completely agree.

2) What you watch and listen to: Few if any romantic comedies, sitcoms, or dramas have any really deep bass. That's also true of most music and by that I mean little rock, pop, jazz or classical music has much content that dips much below 30hz. On the other hand there is some music that dips really deep, including some exotic organ music that goes so low (below 20hz) that parts of it can only be felt not heard. And let's not forget action movies. If that's your taste then (budget and environment allowing) you'll want a sub that will dip to 20hz or lower with authority.

Here I have to respectfully disagree. According to my spectrum analyzer, acoustic jazz and classical music has a lot going on in the octave from 20-40Hz, and getting that octave right is important to realism.

 

[highfigh]

I heard about those 30" woofers but never had the chance to really hear them. . That was well before the release of real subs that could go down even lower. Those huge woofers also needed a huge enclosure and I guess they were horn loaded just like their 15" predecessors in the Patrician cabinets.
By the way, I am curious. How was their transient response as compared to a good 15" transducer such as the Altec 416?

I would have to look at the spec sheet to see how it would compare- I had a pair of 418B and I still have a pair of 417B, but the 417B are really made for mid-range and it has been close to 40 years since I had the 418. However, with a 1/2" thick styrofoam cone, there wasn't much mass to resist the voice coil/s motion- even with complex percussion and synths going at the same time, they were great.

They were horn loaded, but EV has spec sheets for bass reflex cabinets with F3 as low as 17.5Hz- the smaller of the two is 26 ft³ and the larger is 46 ft³.

Here's a link with photos of the EV 30W- some might consider it to be 'a little over the top'.

http://www.dougronald.com/sound_images.htm

 

[KEW]

Yes finally it worked! Ok one didn't but here goes those JBL's would help but my issue is you can see the openness of the floor plan and the arches although beautiful are just killing me. Because you can't put the surrounds and the backs about 2 feet above ear level cuz there are no walls they're and on the right it's two giant Windows that's the picture that wouldn't upload. So I'm using my elan theaterpoint THP 650LS as surrounds and backs sonically they match up good with the primes and they're piano gloss finish is georgeous. Matches the primes they're sealed with 2 6.5 drivers and a tweeter but they're big so a nightmare to wall mount. It sounds pretty damn good but here's my question cuz with better placement it could sound better. I like the jbls but I'm thinking of using SVS Prime elevations in those arched walls cuz I can position them better in the right spots for surround speakers just up higher because they're designed to work around that. Then upgrade to the ultra towers in the front. Then use Prime elevations in my ceiling someday when I wanna do atmos dts etc etc down the road. Also I may upgrade the front subs cuz that's a lotta space or put 2 PC 2000's for a near field effect right behind those couches they'll fit perfect there. Then and only then someday will I decide if separates and power amps will be necessary. What do you think I could really use some observations and viewpoints from you guys and I always really enjoy your input any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Sorry, I was out of town for teh last day.
I see what you are saying about the Prime Elevations allowing you to mount above the archways. I did not realize you had that situation. Those JBL's seem like the perfect solution for a typical setup.
I'm not the guy to really help you with your HT! I'm about 95% Music and 5% HT. I only have a 5.2 set up, but even then often don't have the subs, surrounds, or the center connected! I am curious about atmos and do plan to try that. Everyone who tries it seems to think it is a substantial innovation in HT audio.

 

[Danzilla31]

Sorry, I was out of town for teh last day.
I see what you are saying about the Prime Elevations allowing you to mount above the archways. I did not realize you had that situation. Those JBL's seem like the perfect solution for a typical setup.
I'm not the guy to really help you with your HT! I'm about 95% Music and 5% HT. I only have a 5.2 set up, but even then often don't have the subs, surrounds, or the center connected! I am curious about atmos and do plan to try that. Everyone who tries it seems to think it is a substantial innovation in HT audio.

No worries my friend I get busy as well hope your trip went well. Still value your insights though. Plus I love music as well I'd say I'm 50/50 for both music and HT. Learned a lot from you and some others following these threads. And I appreciate the heads up on the JBL's I'll let you know how the Prime elevations work once I get them. I've heard nothing but great things about those. I've heard the same thing about atmos and dts know that I know I don't have to obsess so much about separates I may just get there by next year and fill you in! Man I didn't realize that reciever had that solid of an amp in there makes sense cuz stuff just rocks when I have it at its reference level. Wish I knew it's specs all channels driven but that info is hard to find with these main av reciever companies. But that makes me even more excited to get the ultra's cuz when I want to do music I can just switch to 2 channel stereo and that reciever sounds like itll drive those babies really well! You have me drooling now!