How low do does a subwoofer really need to go?

[Isak Öhrlund]

Hi,

I currently have a closed cabinet 9" subwoofer that is rated at 37-200 Hz +/- 3 dB. I do not know what the frequency response is in my room. Now, the gentleman behind subwoofer101 argues that a subwoofer needs to reach 20 Hz with authority in a home theater system. So I started to wonder about whether it was worth upgrading or not. What do you guys think? Is it really necessary to have a sub rated down to 20 Hz for home theater purposes? What about room gain, sound compression in movie streams (e.g. via iTunes movies) and the overall frequency of low frequencies in movies (do they really occur that often)?

Thanks in advance.

 

[snakeeyes]

Hi,

I currently have a closed cabinet 9" subwoofer that is rated at 37-200 Hz +/- 3 dB. I do not know what the frequency response is in my room. Now, the gentleman behind subwoofer101 argues that a subwoofer needs to reach 20 Hz with authority in a home theater system. So I started to wonder about whether it was worth upgrading or not. What do you guys think? Is it really necessary to have a sub rated down to 20 Hz for home theater purposes? What about room gain, sound compression in movie streams (e.g. via iTunes movies) and the overall frequency of low frequencies in movies (do they really occur that often)?

Thanks in advance.

Yes it’s literally night and day for movies in 5.1 or better. I have a ported 12in sub in a 2600 cu ft room. There is no distortion or port chuffing. Clean bass near 20hz is a good investment if you are watching movies. Dual subs if you want perfect bass throughout the space. You can crossover all the speakers at the AVR or just the smaller ones.
As far as 2ch music on super expensive towers that reach down to 20hz, maybe a sub or 2 is needed only for dub step or rap. (But I would still run subs if it were me).

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't know subwoofer101 but I agree with him in that a sub should go to at least 20hz. I'm a bassoholic, tho However, whether you want a sub like that is up to you, I certainly wouldn't be satisfied with that bass module you've got . Don't know about iTunes movies, that's one service I won't use, but streaming or disc, movies often have soundtracks that can extend low. Try this thread for a ranking of movies for low frequency content.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

My tSt towers measured to reach 32hz. then I added a very humble PA-120 sub and used a proper 80hz crossover, the overall sound improved very noticeably - I guess could be my cheap towers aren't nearly as accurate in below 80hz, but it very very significant improvement

 

[Steve81]

Now, the gentleman behind subwoofer101 argues that a subwoofer needs to reach 20 Hz with authority in a home theater system. ...Is it really necessary to have a sub rated down to 20 Hz for home theater purposes?

Extension to 20Hz with authority is certainly nice to have in a home theater. OTOH, for apartment dwellers such as yourself, it's also liable to tick off your neighbors/landlord.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Taking qualifiers off, such as apartment living, or music listening etc, yes. 20hz with authority is necessary. There’s a whole ‘nother dimension below the 37hz of your current woofer. Deep linear bass is a beautiful thing.

 

[Verdinut]

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones living in an apartment with 10 inch thick concrete floors.
I know that bass frequencies do shake concrete. So with the three 15 inch Dayton RSS subs of my HT system, I usually listen to and feel deep bass content, in either movies or classical recordings with big drums or 32 foot organ stop pipes vibrating, mostly in afternoon listening sessions and limit them to softer levels until eleven at night.
But so far, having been in the actual apartment for 17 years, I have never received complaints.

My HT: https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/my-7-channel-system.111234/

 

[TLS Guy]

You have asked a really good question. Unless you want the last word of Hollywood effects, then it is not necessary to go to 20 Hz. A sub with a 3db just below 30 Hz is perfectly adequate for most purposes. Getting clean sound to 20 Hz is expensive and the money for most, much better spent on other areas. That last half octave from 30 Hz to 20 Hz is the most expendable if funds are tight. What is important is bass quality. There is far too much over resonant gear around. If deep bass is not very lean and non resonant it ruins the rest of the program and impairs speech intelligibility. The latter is what really needs to be top priority for home AV and is so often really sub par. Getting clear natural speech without shout is I think the toughest challenge in home AV, and far higher in importance than extension to 20 Hz.

The real test of deep accurate bass is how soft and deep in can play. When an organist just lightly touches a deep pedal, I want to be aware of just the sensation of it. That is how they sound and not as reproduced by most systems.

To be honest doing the rounds, I think a lot of systems are ruined by subs and not enhanced by them. The front three are the absolute top priority and the sub down the list. Power and expense needs to be given to the midrange above all else. That is the true make or break band of systems. However you can ruin it by what happens above and below it.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I agree with TLSGuy. For our HT system we don't use a sub, the mains are potent to about 32Hz, and we enjoy it a lot. Speech intelligibility is paramount, or you won't care about anything else.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Maybe in a Home Theatre, as movie soundtracks are crafted and choreographed in a way that is more akin to directing actors than audio-only music,* and you can expect low frequency content not related to musical instruments. Music and Movie Audio are different that way.

One of the major limitations that digital recording removed was Low Frequency information that can reasonably be stored in media (DVD, Blu-Ray, and CD as well for that matter).

For audio applications, probably around 30Hz is fine, unless you listen to pipe organ recordings, where theoretically you would need to be able to reproduce 16Hz cleanly for the few installations that have that pipe available.

* Movies do not necessarily try to be "accurate". The classic example is the gunshot, which follows a movie traditional sound signature, and doesn't try to sound like an actual gunshot does. Another example would be Movies which also contain some "earthquake" sonics that are not how real earthquakes sound, but do have a lot of relatively low frequency information (not as low as real earthquakes which can be below 10 Hz).

 

[highfigh]

While the spec for a sub's frequency response may only go to 37Hz, its response in the room will go lower as soon as it's placed near one wall and this is increased as soon as more boundaries become close to it. For this reason, its placement is very important because more does not equal better, it's often just 'more'. Deep and smooth don't necessarily go together in every case and it's only the well-designed subs that can achieve this. In many cases, it's better to reach 30Hz well than to have 20Hz with problems.

 

[snakeeyes]

The avalanche on the War of the Apes movie is pretty sweet.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

Extension to 20Hz with authority is certainly nice to have in a home theater. OTOH, for apartment dwellers such as yourself, it's also liable to tick off your neighbors/landlord.

That's my dilemma, would love best bass possible but being in an apartment I may need to make a compromise. There's got to be something out there which would improve beyond my current DefTech Prosub 800's, maybe a pair of RSL Speedwoofer 10s?

 

[sterling shoote]

Hi,

I currently have a closed cabinet 9" subwoofer that is rated at 37-200 Hz +/- 3 dB. I do not know what the frequency response is in my room. Now, the gentleman behind subwoofer101 argues that a subwoofer needs to reach 20 Hz with authority in a home theater system. So I started to wonder about whether it was worth upgrading or not. What do you guys think? Is it really necessary to have a sub rated down to 20 Hz for home theater purposes? What about room gain, sound compression in movie streams (e.g. via iTunes movies) and the overall frequency of low frequencies in movies (do they really occur that often)?

Thanks in advance.

My interest in a sub came at the dawn of Home Theatre; and, I answered the call, purchasing a JBL B-380 passive subwoofer, which has now worked well for both music and movies for about 30 years. OK, so where am I going with this: although my sub will reproduce 20Hz content, 20Hz is more felt than heard; and, it is not felt much unless driven to a very unrealistic level. Set up in that manner, with crossover at about 60Hz, bass dominates, destroying the pleasure, whether it's music or movies. That's to say, bass in the 40 to 20Hz arena is overrated. I do not think you would be able to harness it for typical movie enjoyment without it becoming a distraction. Now, the way I've come to appreciate my sub is setting its output at a level which actually is barely discerned. In other words, I've set it at a level where it does not exaggerate on material which has content in the 20Hz arena. You can get this performance today in many active subs, one's made for studio monitoring being particularly attractive.

 

[snakeeyes]

That's my dilemma, would love best bass possible but being in an apartment I may need to make a compromise. There's got to be something out there which would improve beyond my current DefTech Prosub 800's, maybe a pair of RSL Speedwoofer 10s?

It’s easy to beat the sealed 8in prosub 800. I hesitate to recommend a sealed 10in that can’t reach the low end at all but ya it would beat the 8in and improve things a lot. The 12in entry level sealed subs from Rythmik and SVS are good options in an apartment. L12 or SB1000. They don’t have the high output of ported subs but you probably will get evicted running ported subs in an apartment as you may actually rattle the neighbors apartment if you aren’t careful. You probably have to be careful running sealed 12in subs as well.

 

[lovinthehd]

Never had a dialog issue using a sub fwiw. As far as whether 20hz or below capabilities are worth it for the effort/$ involved and the relatively little content to use it with is a personal decision. Many wouldn't miss it, particularly for music only.....

ps If in an apartment/townhouse then that is a consideration as to how much you could even use it....

 

[Verdinut]

Something that is really annoying at late and early hours is when your performing sub(s) produce shaking bass sourced by TV commercials.

 

[Danzilla31]

My problem is I agree you can do without it. But now that I have upgraded to dual subs that can go below 20hz I am HOPELESSLY ADDICTED TO IT. Ignorance is bliss. I wish Id never have discovered how awesome it sounds cuz as mentioned above I couldve spent more money on midrange the l c r channels etc etc. This is my warning once you go to 20hz or below you don't ever go back. And it is more expensive to buy the gear that can pull it off. So my warning is beware the addiction! Sighhhh now I just have to get my uppers and mids to match my lows so I'm just gonna buy the best of everything my budget will allow. I'm hooked hopelessly and I've been told that I have now officially joined the audioaddiction..... er I mean audioholics club

 

[Alex2507]

My guess is that the 9" thing is more of a kazoo than a sub. If not 20 Hz then something approaching 20 Hz might be nice. -6db @ 20 Hz? -3db @ 27Hz? Those types of numbers work for me in a condo setting and even then, they get turned off until I want them on.

Having heard a 2 or 3 thousand dollar dual sealed sub from PSA, all I can say is go as low as you can afford. These guys saying you don't need a sub and 32 Hz is good enough, their gear runs into the twenty thousand dollar mark at the speakers! Yeah, I'll take that 32 Hz over just about anything!

 

[highfigh]

My problem is I agree you can do without it. But now that I have upgraded to dual subs that can go below 20hz I am HOPELESSLY ADDICTED TO IT. Ignorance is bliss. I wish Id never have discovered how awesome it sounds cuz as mentioned above I couldve spent more money on midrange the l c r channels etc etc. This is my warning once you go to 20hz or below you don't ever go back. And it is more expensive to buy the gear that can pull it off. So my warning is beware the addiction! Sighhhh now I just have to get my uppers and mids to match my lows so I'm just gonna buy the best of everything my budget will allow. I'm hooked hopelessly and I've been told that I have now officially joined the audioaddiction..... er I mean audioholics club

We aren't addicts- we can stop anytime we want. No, really. Seriously!

How long have you been at this- I mean, how long since you heard a really great system? If you're relatively new to it, I would bet that you'll gradually change your views on strong bass because you'll realize that it's not realistic, just sensational. Your listening ability and focus will also change- hearing isn't listening. In addition, our mind is a very powerful participant in this- if we know a piece of music and have heard it sound differently, possibly sounding better than we normally hear, our mind will often 'fill in the blanks' for us. It can end the need for extreme levels in certain frequency ranges and the idea that it needs to be loud in order to sound good. You would be surprised by the amount of detail that can be heard at extremely low levels when we actually listen for it.

FWIW- I had a pair of 30" ElectroVoice woofers- I gave up on having that kind of bass when I sold them. It's not that it was a lot, it just sounded really, really good and it was deep. Still, that was before home theater and they were originally used for the bass pedals of a church organ, so it needed to be smooth.