Dual center channels

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goin3wide

Audiophyte
Can anyone speak from experience when it comes to considering "dual mono" center channels? I'm considering a smaller, 2nd center channel at a higher position than my main center (which is below my TV) to bring the sound appearance to a more mid-screen location?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Never use dual center channels.

I've tried it. It sounds really weird in a bad way. :D
 
G

goin3wide

Audiophyte
I read that, and thank you. still hoping to hear from someone first hand, that maybe even had a good experience and sees it as a viable option.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I read that, and thank you. still hoping to hear from someone first hand, that maybe even had a good experience and sees it as a viable option.
I did it for awhile before I got a "real" center speaker. It works, but it's crap. Get a better center instead of trying to hack together two speakers to do the job of one.

Someone may give you feedback saying it was a "good" experience, but if that feedback is what you're looking for to validate your need to try it, then don't worry about that. Just try it and see if you like it. You're the one that has to listen to your system. The most important thing is that YOU like the way it sounds.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
It's a very bad idea. It will not anchor the dialogue to your screen. You would need a pre-out and a separate amp just to power it. It will only interfere with the lower speaker. There are about a half dozed good acoustic reasons why it should not be done, and this is why you never see it being done.

If you want the sound anchored more to the screen, there are things you can do to help your existing center do that. First of all, make sure the center speaker is aimed at your ears in your listening position.

Make sure there aren't a lot of ground reflections from the center- ie., make sure there is not a hard surface between you and the center, like a glass coffee table top, or a hard floor like tile or hardwood. If there is a hard floor between you and the center speaker, place some plush, soft rug on the floor in front of the center. What may be distracting for you is the acoustic reflections off the flooring, but you can damp those easily.

Make sure the center speaker is placed in a relatively open space. If you have it tucked back into a cabinet, that is going to make it sound bad. If you can place it on top of the cabinet with lots of space around it, try to at lest get the front baffle of the center speaker to jut out of any shelving around it. You want there to be as few surfaces around it as possible.

Using another center above the display will not in anyway alleviate these problems if they are the source of your irritation.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Don’t use 2 centers.... :)
On newer Yamaha receivers you can use dialog lift by engaging the heights to help the center lift the dialog. (You can also use the main left right to lift the dialog if they are tall enough if you don’t have L R height speakers to get the sound at a mid screen level like I do). I’m not sure if Denon has the same feature. Good luck! :)
 
G

goin3wide

Audiophyte
I did it for awhile before I got a "real" center speaker. It works, but it's crap. Get a better center instead of trying to hack together two speakers to do the job of one.

Someone may give you feedback saying it was a "good" experience, but if that feedback is what you're looking for to validate your need to try it, then don't worry about that. Just try it and see if you like it. You're the one that has to listen to your system. The most important thing is that YOU like the way it sounds.
Good perspective, thank you.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
@goin3wide – I noticed a similar thread on another forum, posted by a Jooobs. If that’s you, you’ve already read it. If it isn’t, you should have a look at it.

That forum does have more readers and posts. Sometimes that’s a good thing, and sometimes bad. Many posts there agree with the posts here advising you against using two center speakers. In this case, I think the abundance of differing opinions on that forum is clouding the issue. Too many have posted about the difference in impedance between one or two speakers. That’s an electrical problem that may or may not have an impact on your AVR or amp. It is unrelated to the real issue of comb filtering. That’s an acoustic problem, what can happen to sound once it leaves the speaker.

In particular, one poster, dfa973, is mucking things up in several ways. First of all, he tries to dominate others by talking longer and louder. Second, he seems to confuse the commonly used two mid-woofers in sideways MTM speakers with the very different question of two widely separated center channel speakers. And third, he thinks theaters and homes have the same acoustic problems. His idea that “if it works in a theater, then it must be good at home” is wrong. The distance sound travels must be understood in terms of wavelengths and not feet or meters.

His set up has a TV set (of unknown size) with center speakers above and below. Yours has a larger projection screen where you want to do something similar. That poster is confusing his set up with yours – the distance between those two pairs of center speakers will be quite different. And yes, with sound waves, that distance does matter a lot. Comb filtering problem becomes hard to describe without considering the distances between both speakers and the listener, AND the wavelengths of the sound. At 500 Hz the wavelength is about 2¼ feet, at 1000 Hz about 1.1 feet, 2000 Hz iabout 0.56 feet, etc. The interference of two or more sources of sound varies greatly depending on those distances and those wavelengths. If sound from the top and bottom center speakers arrive at your ears in-phase with each other, they will add together, sounding louder. But if you slump in your sofa lowering your head by a few inches, sounds can easily arrive out-of-phase with each other and cancel. The difference between in-phase and out-of-phase waves is half the wavelength, so yes, it's really a matter of inches. This problem also exists if other listeners are not the same height as you are. It varies greatly with wavelength, and that’s why you see the comb-like teeth on a chart plotting frequency vs. loudness. It's easier to avoid this problem by using a single center speaker. Why would you go out of your way to create this potential trouble?

OK, enough about that. You would do well to ignore dfa973.

You seem to be determined to try using two center speakers, one above, and one below your screen, despite some solid advice from others why you should avoid doing that. Fine, if that’s what you intend to do, go ahead. However, you would not be going about this fairly unless you also compare your two center speaker arrangement to the sound you get from one better quality center speaker. Without that, you can’t compare things, you can’t know which one actually sounds better, and you can't know what you might prefer.
 
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goin3wide

Audiophyte
I have the “one quality speaker” there now, and I’m satisfied with the quality. I just feel it’s a little low when the screen Is deployed. It projects for the bottom 25% of the screen and I wish it was more centered. So I thought I could use a speaker I have that’s not in use ( either a basic Polk center or the Def tec you see in my picture) and let that help favor the sound upwards a little. But with all the concerns for muddy and out of phase sloppy sound, I’ve got to abandon the concept without trial. It seems like a long shot at this point, and probably not worth the fuss.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I have the “one quality speaker” there now, and I’m satisfied with the quality. I just feel it’s a little low when the screen Is deployed. It projects for the bottom 25% of the screen and I wish it was more centered. So I thought I could use a speaker I have that’s not in use ( either a basic Polk center or the Def tec you see in my picture) and let that help favor the sound upwards a little. But with all the concerns for muddy and out of phase sloppy sound, I’ve got to abandon the concept without trial. It seems like a long shot at this point, and probably not worth the fuss.
What I did (and after doing it would never go any other way) is do an acoustically transparent screen with a large center behind the screen. Mine is an in-wall tower due to space constraints and it sounds fantastic. I previously had my pioneer speakers in my sig behind the screen, but that wouldn't work in the new room. Glad it didn't because I got a big upgrade.
 
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