The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Out-Of-Phase]

Pass also "fine tune" their amps and believe each of their amps has a "unique sonic signature".

They are lied to by the manufacturers and the audio 'salons'. Then they go home and they continue to lie to themselves every time they listen to music.

"This amp is musical, it has a liquid mid-range, it has plenty of sparkle on top and has real bass slam!"

"In fact it is a refined musical instrument!"

"The competition sounds dry and analytical."

"This amp has a whole new zenith of sound quality!"

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They are lied to by the manufacturers and the audio 'salons'. Then they go home and they continue to lie to themselves every time they listen to music.

"This amp is musical, it has a liquid mid-range, it has plenty of sparkle on top and has real bass slam!"

"In fact it is a refined musical instrument!"

"The competition sounds dry and analytical."

"This amp has a whole new zenith of sound quality!"

Here is the Stereophile measurement of a Pass Labs amp:

"Into an 8 ohm resistive load (blue trace),the XA605's response was flat up to 20kHz".

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-xa608-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#0B16D4moimb5wTZg.99

Flat FR = dry and analytical to me like most amps.

Geez, from those words you posted "Sparkle top and real bass slam", I think they were using a Denon AVR with Dynamic EQ turned on.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

"Geez, from those words you posted "Sparkle top and real bass slam", I think they were using a Denon AVR with Dynamic EQ turned on."

LOL

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Your Denon AVR sounds as good using 'Direct Mode' as any expensive 'bling' amp or 'bling' mono amps. It also sounds better than any 'bling' amp or 'bling' mono amps with Audyssy turned on.

Ironic isn't it?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Your Denon AVR sounds as good using 'Direct Mode' as any expensive 'bling' amp or 'bling' mono amps. It also sounds better than any 'bling' amp or 'bling' mono amps with Audyssy turned on.

Ironic isn't it?

It is ironic, but true. However, it may be extremely difficult for some people to ever believe!

The Force isn't very strong with some people.

Obi-Wan: These amps have more sparkle top and real bass slam.
Weaklings: These amps have more sparkle top and real bass slam.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Audio salon salesperson: "This amp has a whole new zenith of sound quality!"
Sheep customer at home: "This amp has a whole new zenith of sound quality!"
Neighbor from across the street: "I think the emperor has no clothes!"

 

[sterling shoote]

For components to sound the same would not the components need to be the same?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

For components to sound the same would not the components need to be the same?

Can you be more specific? Do you mean SS vs SS? Tube vs Tube?

 

[sterling shoote]

Can you be more specific? Do you mean SS vs SS? Tube vs Tube?

I'm making a general statement. For example: I can expect that a Shure M97xE sounds different than an Ortofon M2 Red, because after all, they're physically different. I would also expect, within reason, that an Ortofon 2M Red would sound similar to another Ortofon 2M Red. In tube or solid state amps, I expect that any divergence of circuit design between contender and reference could also produce some divergence in sound between the units.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I'm making a general statement. For example: I can expect that a Shure M97xE sounds different than an Ortofon M2 Red, because after all, they're physically different. I would also expect, within reason, that an Ortofon 2M Red would sound similar to another Ortofon 2M Red. In tube or solid state amps, I expect that any divergence of circuit design between contender and reference could also produce some divergence in sound between the units.

Any differences in sound between the devices has to be proven through volume level matched blind testing with both devices not exceeding their design parameters. Sighted evaluations can produce false sonic differences due to our expectation biases.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In tube or solid state amps, I expect that any divergence of circuit design between contender and reference could also produce some divergence in sound between the units.

You mean two 300 watts amps that measure almost the same in every spec (FR, SNR, THD, or inaudible difference) powering the same speakers, in the same room, and everything else being the same, will sound different just because their circuit designs are different?

 

[sterling shoote]

You mean two 300 watts amps that measure almost the same in every spec (FR, SNR, THD, or inaudible difference) powering the same speakers, in the same room, and everything else being the same, will sound different just because their circuit designs are different?

You said, "measure almost the same", so, if not the same, how could they sound the same? And, would it not be the circuit design that was the cause for "almost" rather than "identical"?

 

[sterling shoote]

Any differences in sound between the devices has to be proven through volume level matched blind testing with both devices not exceeding their design parameters. Sighted evaluations can produce false sonic differences due to our expectation biases.

I'll buy that; but, since you qualified your statement with "not exceeding their design parameters" you must agree that a divergence in circuit design can make a component sound different than another in some manner of operation.

 

[sterling shoote]

One more thing, I expect manufactures to advertise their products in a manner that at least alludes to the product sounding better, having more useful features, being easier to use, etc., since without distinguishing the product from others in the market, the product would not sell. Some will believe the accolades but some will not, and thus, the manufactures need to have their products reviewed with assured outcomes, which is possible when the manufacturer pays for the review.
Now, I don't have much interest in topics like this one because I'm not an audio warrior attempting to persuade or guide anyone to a decision on what to buy. In other words, whether AVRs sound the same, better, or worse than separates seems to be asking for an absolute or always truthful answer, when, as Jack Nicholson once said, "you can't handle the truth", meaning the truth may, in the comparison of AVRs to separates, not always be absolute.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You said, "measure almost the same", so, if not the same, how could they sound the same?

You're being serious?

You're saying that you can hear the difference between a SNR of 120dB vs 110dB, THD of 0.01% vs 0.001%, FR of 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.0dB vs +/-0.1dB?

It's like being able to tell the difference between 1080p and 1081p resolution!

It's cool to see all these measurement numbers, but all these numbers are completely inaudible to humans so we cannot possibly hear the difference among any of these numbers. These days, these numbers are purely academic.

Do these numbers mean anything? Sure, it means that certain components are made with higher standards and specs and cost a lot more money. But bottom line, we still can't hear the difference among these great specs!

That's why Sound & Vision Magazine gets very lazy sometimes and don't even bother to post these numbers by simply stating that the measurements (SNR, THD, Crosstalk, FR) are "all within normal specs". You can also add Damping Factor and Slew Rate to the list of academic numbers.

This is what we call "Science" and human physiology.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I'll buy that; but, since you qualified your statement with "not exceeding their design parameters" you must agree that a divergence in circuit design can make a component sound different than another in some manner of operation.

I must agree that your response sounds very vague.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

One more thing, I expect manufactures to advertise their products in a manner that at least alludes to the product sounding better, having more useful features, being easier to use, etc., since without distinguishing the product from others in the market, the product would not sell. Some will believe the accolades but some will not, and thus, the manufactures need to have their products reviewed with assured outcomes, which is possible when the manufacturer pays for the review.
Now, I don't have much interest in topics like this one because I'm not an audio warrior attempting to persuade or guide anyone to a decision on what to buy. In other words, whether AVRs sound the same, better, or worse than separates seems to be asking for an absolute or always truthful answer, when, as Jack Nicholson once said, "you can't handle the truth", meaning the truth may, in the comparison of AVRs to separates, not always be absolute.

People who blindly believe in audiophile marketing can’t handle the truth.

 

[sterling shoote]

You're being serious?

You're saying that you can hear the difference between a SNR of 120dB vs 110dB, THD of 0.01% vs 0.001%, FR of 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.0dB vs +/-0.1dB?

It's like being able to tell the difference between 1080p and 1081p resolution!

It's cool to see all these measurement numbers, but all these numbers are completely inaudible to humans so we cannot possibly hear the difference among any of these numbers. These days, these numbers are purely academic.

Do these numbers mean anything? Sure, it means that certain components are made with higher standards and specs and cost a lot more money. But bottom line, we still can't hear the difference among these great specs!

That's why Sound & Vision Magazine gets very lazy sometimes and don't even bother to post these numbers by simply stating that the measurements (SNR, THD, Crosstalk, FR) are "all within normal specs". You can also add Damping Factor and Slew Rate to the list of academic numbers.

This is what we call "Science" and human physiology.

The point is this, although you can not hear a difference the difference still exists. The unequal measurements prove it, although no one on the Planet could hear it. It's kind of like, If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it does it make a sound?

 

[sterling shoote]

People who blindly believe in audiophile marketing can’t handle the truth.

In marketing, it's not about the truth, it's about what people can be made to believe. And, absolutely, these folks seem to be blind to the truth, or at least to the facts.

 

[Verdinut]

In marketing, it's not about the truth, it's about what people can be made to believe. And, absolutely, these folks seem to be blind to the truth, or at least to the facts.

In marketing, not only in the A/V business, there is a lot of bullshit!