The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[KEW]

Does anyone recognize the speaker (unique grill cloth, seems like sonus faber had something like that) or what the white unit is on the top of the right stack of gear?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not cheap, I'm frugal, there's a difference. Science teaches us, you don't have to spend a lot of money to get great sound.

There's more to life than having expensive hood ornaments in your living room and believing they sound better.

I think we need guys like you to keep some of us out of trouble.

During the week, pretty blue bling fantasies might make us feel good. But at the end of the week when what we really care about is the actual sound and contents, these fantasies fall short when we start to worry about the $7K Pre-pro malfunctioning just right after the warranty expires in 3 years.

I mean if they could give me a 20YR warranty for this $7K McIntosh MX122 Pre-pro, I may just buy it. But no way I'm paying $7K these days for a 3YR, which is the same 3YR as a Denon AVR warranty (Bryston has 5 YR Warranty on their Pre-pro, Sony has 5YR warranty on their ES AVR).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

LOL!

Typical audiophool store.

Sales: But I think you'll find that the ROTEL sounds much better!

So last night I was watching The Expanse S01E09 on BluRay DTS 5.1. I thought to myself, "Hey, let's compare Audyssey Dynamic EQ ON vs OFF! Let's pretend like I'm using the ROTEL or ATI Pre-pro that doesn't have DYNAMIC EQ! Could I live without Dynamic EQ?"

I really wanted to say that turning Dynamic EQ OFF didn't make a significant difference. But it was day and night difference. The difference was huge. It's not just the bass being hot. It's more "dynamic" - more "impactful". I believe the audiophile term for this kind of bass is "lightening fast bass".

I mean it's not just louder bass. I turned off Dynamic EQ and boosted the Subwoofer Trim levels to +6dB for all five SX-1010 subwoofers and still didn't have this "slam", "impact", "fast", "gut-wrenching" bass!

It's the EQ itself, not the Bass Volume Level.

So I guess I'm "stuck" with gears, I'm sorry, I mean Pre-pros or AVRs that have Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which means Denon, Marantz, and McIntosh (if I go crazy).

That means no ATI Pre-pros for me, unless ATI somehow decides to use Audyssey on a lower-end model, which doesn't seem probable.

Stuck on Dynamic EQ for life it seems.

EDIT: I forgot to say that except for the significant impactful dynamic bass difference, everything else sounded the same as Direct mode - everything above the bass frequencies like midrange, dialogue, treble sounded the same as Direct.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

So IOW, Spock minus the sense and logic Nonetheless, bearded Spock is the best Spock.

Edit: And of course on the topic of sense and logic vs excitement as it relates to Star Trek, see the TNG episode Tapestry. If Picard isn't an impulsive shithead who gets stabbed in the heart during a bar fight as a kid, he'll end up a boring little science officer vs the captain of a starship!

Thanks Steve, I’ll have to check out that episode. I must admit I’m more of a purist when it comes to that show as I still prefer the original NBC series from the 60’s to anything that came out later. I’m a bit of a snob when it comes to Star Trek.

 

[PENG]

So last night I was watching The Expanse S01E09 on BluRay DTS 5.1. I thought to myself, "Hey, let's compare Audyssey Dynamic EQ ON vs OFF! Let's pretend like I'm using the ROTEL or ATI Pre-pro that doesn't have DYNAMIC EQ! Could I live without Dynamic EQ?"

I really wanted to say that turning Dynamic EQ OFF didn't make a significant difference. But it was day and night difference. The difference was huge. It's not just the bass being hot. It's more "dynamic" - more "impactful". I believe the audiophile term for this kind of bass is "lightening fast bass".

I mean it's not just louder bass. I turned off Dynamic EQ and boosted the Subwoofer Trim levels to +6dB for all five SX-1010 subwoofers and still didn't have this "slam", "impact", "fast", "gut-wrenching" bass!

It's the EQ itself, not the Bass Volume Level.

So I guess I'm "stuck" with gears, I'm sorry, I mean Pre-pros or AVRs that have Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which means Denon, Marantz, and McIntosh (if I go crazy).

That means no ATI Pre-pros for me, unless ATI somehow decides to use Audyssey on a lower-end model, which doesn't seem probable.

Stuck on Dynamic EQ for life it seems.

You wonder why I think people should be open minded about EQ especially the very adjustable and/or automated, sophisticated and affordable ones like Audyssey, Dirac, Anthem ARCs. All else being equal, that's the one trick that can provide very audible (I bet even by kids) improvements, unlike preamp/amps that can produce "audible" difference too most of the time but only with eyes open.

I used to believe in pure direct for music, no more..

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

So last night I was watching The Expanse S01E09 on BluRay DTS 5.1. I thought to myself, "Hey, let's compare Audyssey Dynamic EQ ON vs OFF! Let's pretend like I'm using the ROTEL or ATI Pre-pro that doesn't have DYNAMIC EQ! Could I live without Dynamic EQ?"

I really wanted to say that turning Dynamic EQ OFF didn't make a significant difference. But it was day and night difference. The difference was huge. It's not just the bass being hot. It's more "dynamic" - more "impactful". I believe the audiophile term for this kind of bass is "lightening fast bass".

I mean it's not just louder bass. I turned off Dynamic EQ and boosted the Subwoofer Trim levels to +6dB for all five SX-1010 subwoofers and still didn't have this "slam", "impact", "fast", "gut-wrenching" bass!

It's the EQ itself, not the Bass Volume Level.

So I guess I'm "stuck" with gears, I'm sorry, I mean Pre-pros or AVRs that have Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which means Denon, Marantz, and McIntosh (if I go crazy).

That means no ATI Pre-pros for me, unless ATI somehow decides to use Audyssey on a lower-end model, which doesn't seem probable.

Stuck on Dynamic EQ for life it seems.

Interesting. I’ll have to perform the same test with my X4400H this weekend. Based on your findings, just keep your Denon. There’s no point in taking a vacation all around the world (McIntosh) when you can experience the same thing right in your own back yard.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You wonder why I think people should be open minded about EQ especially the very adjustable and/or automated, sophisticated and affordable ones like Audyssey, Dirac, Anthem ARCs. All else being equal, that's the one trick that can provide very audible (I bet even by kids) improvements, unlike preamp/amps that can produce "audible" difference too most of the time but only with eyes open.

I used to believe in pure direct for music, no more..

Definitely doesn't hurt to keep an open mind about EQ's.

Some people may not like some EQ's, but they may love at least one EQ.

For me, it's just one EQ - Dynamic EQ. But I think at least you have to give it a try. If you don't like certain EQ's, you can always turn that off.

As always, only use the EQ(s) if it improves the sound for you. But at least try. Don't just listen to hearsay or other people's personal experiences. Be your own judge!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Interesting. I’ll have to perform the same test with my X4400H this weekend. Based on your findings, just keep your Denon. There’s no point in taking a vacation all around the world (McIntosh) when you can experience the same thing right in your own back yard.

Definitely true.

This is actually a true case for me personally where spending A LOT MORE could give me A LOT LESS!

For example, I could spend $10K on a Bryston Pre-pro that doesn't have Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which would sound like Pure Direct Mode. So then in this case, a Denon X3300 (on sale for $599 or less) with Audyssey XT32 Dynamic EQ would sound significantly better to me than the $10K Bryston!

FYI, for my personal experience, since I like to increase the effects of Dynamic EQ for this dynamic impactful bass effect, I manually set all my trim levels to 80dB, instead of the standard 75dB. This is to increase the magnitude of the Dynamic EQ beyond the standard "offset" of zero.

Going with your VACATION analogy, you could spend $20K on a vacation around the world vs $1K on a closer vacation site. If you could get better experiences (foods, friends, family, fun) than somewhere else around the world, why pay $20K?

Of course, everyone is different. To some people, just being somewhere else around the around in itself is the better experience.

And I'm sure, to some people, owning the $7K McIntosh Pre-pro or $20K Theta Digital or other high-end electronics in itself is the better experience. Not everyone likes the same things.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

So last night I was watching The Expanse S01E09 on BluRay DTS 5.1. I thought to myself, "Hey, let's compare Audyssey Dynamic EQ ON vs OFF! Let's pretend like I'm using the ROTEL or ATI Pre-pro that doesn't have DYNAMIC EQ! Could I live without Dynamic EQ?"

I really wanted to say that turning Dynamic EQ OFF didn't make a significant difference. But it was day and night difference. The difference was huge. It's not just the bass being hot. It's more "dynamic" - more "impactful". I believe the audiophile term for this kind of bass is "lightening fast bass".

I mean it's not just louder bass. I turned off Dynamic EQ and boosted the Subwoofer Trim levels to +6dB for all five SX-1010 subwoofers and still didn't have this "slam", "impact", "fast", "gut-wrenching" bass!

It's the EQ itself, not the Bass Volume Level.

So I guess I'm "stuck" with gears, I'm sorry, I mean Pre-pros or AVRs that have Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which means Denon, Marantz, and McIntosh (if I go crazy).

That means no ATI Pre-pros for me, unless ATI somehow decides to use Audyssey on a lower-end model, which doesn't seem probable.

Stuck on Dynamic EQ for life it seems.

EDIT: I forgot to say that except for the significant impactful dynamic bass difference, everything else sounded the same as Direct mode - everything above the bass frequencies like midrange, dialogue, treble sounded the same as Direct.

Also, have you tried this with a music CD and gotten the same results? I've been using miniDSP for a while now and really like it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also, have you tried this with a music CD and gotten the same results? I've been using miniDSP for a while now and really like it.

Yes. Both Music and Movies. Same results. Everything above bass frequencies are the same as Pure Direct. But bass is dramatically more impactful and dynamic with Dynamic EQ.

 

[TheWarrior]

Does anyone recognize the speaker (unique grill cloth, seems like sonus faber had something like that) or what the white unit is on the top of the right stack of gear?

Correct, it looks like an Homage model...

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Yes. Both Music and Movies. Same results. Everything above bass frequencies are the same as Pure Direct. But bass is dramatically more impactful and dynamic with Dynamic EQ.

Thanks. I'll give it shot this weekend with just the Audyssey on the AVR and compare with the miniDSP.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

AcuDefTechGuy said:
And I'm sure, to some people, owning the $7K McIntosh Pre-pro or $20K Theta Digital or other high-end electronics in itself is the better experience. Not everyone likes the same things.

Agreed. Not everyone likes the same things. The better experience you mentioned is of course a psychological one based on personal biases (biases we all have) and a belief system and not based on objective testing.

 

[Steve81]

Agreed. Not everyone likes the same things. The better experience you mentioned is of course a psychological one based on personal biases (biases we all have) and a belief system and not based on objective testing.

I don't know about all that. It's possible to understand that an amp (or a watch, or a pen, etc.) won't offer a tangible performance benefit over a cheaper substitute, but still appreciate what goes into making it.

With respect to the better experience, psychological or not, the question becomes one of value: what's the satisfaction of owning what you really want, and the peace of mind that goes with that, worth to the individual. Personally, I'm not selling a kidney to become a Bryston owner. OTOH, attach a couple more zeroes to my net worth, and I wouldn't bat an eyelash if it happened to be what I really wanted (I'm not deeply interested in exotic amps either way).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know about all that. It's possible to understand that an amp (or a watch, or a pen, etc.) won't offer a tangible performance benefit over a cheaper substitute, but still appreciate what goes into making it.

With respect to the better experience, psychological or not, the question becomes one of value: what's the satisfaction of owning what you really want, and the peace of mind that goes with that, worth to the individual. Personally, I'm not selling a kidney to become a Bryston owner. OTOH, attach a couple more zeroes to my net worth, and I wouldn't bat an eyelash if it happened to be what I really wanted.

If we were billionaires, we wouldn't be debating about some AVRs vs Separates.

It would be about McIntosh vs Bryston vs Anthem vs $20K Theta Digital/ $20K Datasat vs $30K Trinnov pre-pros, in which case I'll take the Blue Bling (McIntosh MX122 pre-pro + two MC205 amps) for $17K pocket change

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Steve81 said:
I don't know about all that. It's possible to understand that an amp (or a watch, or a pen, etc.) won't offer a tangible performance benefit over a cheaper substitute, but still appreciate what goes into making it.

Good point. For example, there are expensive amplifiers that are designed with premium components instead of inexpensive devices that over time will fail much faster. Over the lifespan of the amp, internal component temperature, parts quality and the type of usage obviously play a role in longevity. I just think that most of the 'boutique' manufacturers out there charge too much for their products because they can. With their profit margins, 1% of the market ain't bad.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

If we were billionaires, we wouldn't be debating about some AVRs vs Separates.

It would be about McIntosh vs Bryston vs Anthem vs $20K Theta Digital/ $20K Datasat vs $30K Trinnov pre-pros, in which case I'll take the Blue Bling (McIntosh MX122 pre-pro + two MC205 amps) for $17K pocket change

But based on your knowledge (science) and experience in the industry, wouldn't you still opt to purchase something reasonably designed and priced? I know I would because of what I have learned over time and because of the principle.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But based on your knowledge (science) and experience in the industry, wouldn't you still opt to purchase something reasonably designed and priced? I know I would because of what I have learned over time and because of the principle.

I definitely would NOT buy the most expensive components just because I could!

It has to still sound as awesome as before, but when you're a billionaire, $17K is not much to think about, right?

That's why I would still go with the McIntosh MX122 pre-pro for $7K, instead of the $30K Trinnov pre-pro even if I were a billionaire!

I think McIntosh is smart for offering two different Pre-pros with 2 different EQ systems (MX122 = Audyssey XT32, MX160 = Lyngdorf).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...there are expensive amplifiers that are designed with premium components instead of inexpensive devices that over time will fail much faster. Over the lifespan of the amp, internal component temperature, parts quality and the type of usage obviously play a role in longevity.

I think the warranty speaks for itself.

Even the $20K components (except for the Analog Amps and Preamps from Bryston) get only 3YR warranty from most companies.

So they could use the best components available in the $30K Pre-pro, but it could still malfunction in 3YR.

Now if I were a billionaire, warranty wouldn't mean much either.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I see your point. Are the Macs modular in design, in other words, can they be upgraded easily as time goes on as the video formats change?