[Yamaha RX-V781] I need help wrapping my brain around DSP modes and what is the correct option

[Vinterbird]

Hi everyone,

This is a dumb question, but I hope someone can help me understand what DSP's does and don't.

I have a Yamaha RX-V781 in my home, two Elac Uni-Fi UF5 towers and a Elac Uni-Fi UC5 Center Channel. No sub or anything else due to the size of the room and so on.

I've become a bit paranoid about what DSP is the correct one to use. The manual states that the "Straight" option will take whatever the source material has and just send that out through the speakers. But it is never clear whether that means "we will send out a 7.1 signal and you will loose a ton of audio" or if it forces everything through whatever available channels there are.
I tried using the "Movie - Standard" option, but for some weird reason I get a ton of echos and it generally sounds bad when watching talkshows and so on.

So what should I do? Am I missing something, doing something wrong? Overall, the audio experince is not revelatory or magical in any way, so I am worried that I am doing something wrong with the DSP settings and overall setup of the unit and not using the system properly.

If anyone can bring any insight into how this stuff actually works, then that would be greatly appriciated.

 

[hemiram]

Use whatever sounds the best. There's no penalty if you use the "wrong" mode. No "Audio Police" will show up at your door, etc. You can't hurt anything. One of the positives and negatives to the HT receivers made over the last 20 years or so is the settings and tweaking can be endless.

I have the same receiver (Mine is the Costco version TSR-7810, but it's really the same thing) and I would say that 90% of the DSP modes sound awful. At least out of the box. If they are tweaked, they can sound pretty pleasant. I had a Yamaha RX-V659 before this new receiver and had the same complaints about the DSP modes sounding bad. The YPAO auto setup sounded awful, so I manually set it up. I haven't even tried it with the 7810 yet. I will after my surrounds are set up.

My set up right now is 2 Polk LSiM 703's, an SVS SC-01 center and a 20 year old cheapo Sony sub. The sub will be upgraded soon, but in the meantime, my system sounds the best, by far, in "7 Channel" mode. It seems weak and kind of lifeless in 2 channel. I have the tone controls turned on, with a slight cut in treble, and a slight bass boost. And one of the biggest improvements, IMHO, was when I was listening to Net Radio, was to turn off the "Enhancer", which seemed to to the opposite. It just made it slightly echoey and annoying to listen to.
IMHO, the Direct mode is just kind of dead sounding, so in the 12 years since I bought the 659, I don't use it, ever.

 

[Vinterbird]

Thanks for the input!

It's a bit weird having to understand that there is no "correct" option, as I always assumed that it would work similiar to how you can correctly calibrate a display and get the correct colors, whites and blacks.

But there isn't a "this is how it was designed to sound" setting somewhere? I'm mainly looking for some sort of "set it and forget it" option, as I really don't want to end up tinkering with this too much.

 

[Bookmark]

The "correct" option is Straight. Straight is the purest DSP it simply sends the signal to the relevant speakers with no extras. That said Straight can make a 5.1 signal a 7.1 but that depends upon other settings. If you want to make use of the remaining speakers you will need to use the Dolby Surround mode or the DTS Neural equivalent. This will create Atmos, elevated speaker output based off the existing base layer channels, ie the 5.1/7.1.

The DSU (Dolby Surround) or DTS Neural X can also be use with Mono, Stereo and Pro logic type sources to utilise all the speakers available.

The other modes such as Cathedral, Jazz room, etc are effects and used to simulate an enviroment, not necessarily to enchance the sound.

Pure Direct bypasses the DSP effects processing, level adjustments, etc. Usually it is for musical stereo sources but it can be used for multi channel if desired

As Hemiram suggests there is no right or wrong, one size fits all, just something that you enjoy. Different sources may benefit different DSP modes.

Personally I use Straight most of the time for music and movies, with DSU for the Pro-logic/Stereo film sources.

 

[Vinterbird]

The "correct" option is Straight. Straight is the purest DSP it simply sends the signal to the relevant speakers with no extras. That said Straight can make a 5.1 signal a 7.1 but that depends upon other settings. If you want to make use of the remaining speakers you will need to use the Dolby Surround mode or the DTS Neural equivalent. This will create Atmos, elevated speaker output based off the existing base layer channels, ie the 5.1/7.1.

The DSU (Dolby Surround) or DTS Neural X can also be use with Mono, Stereo and Pro logic type sources to utilise all the speakers available.

The other modes such as Cathedral, Jazz room, etc are effects and used to simulate an enviroment, not necessarily to enchance the sound.

Pure Direct bypasses the DSP effects processing, level adjustments, etc. Usually it is for musical stereo sources but it can be used for multi channel if desired

As Hemiram suggests there is no right or wrong, one size fits all, just something that you enjoy. Different sources may benefit different DSP modes.

Personally I use Straight most of the time for music and movies, with DSU for the Pro-logic/Stereo film sources.

Thanks for the reply.

In a case of a 3.0 setup, will I loose anything when going to "Straight" ?

The manual seems unclear on whether it will take into account that I don't have a complete 7.1 or 7.1.2 setup in my home.

 

[snakeeyes]

Thanks for the reply.

In a case of a 3.0 setup, will I loose anything when going to "Straight" ?

The manual seems unclear on whether it will take into account that I don't have a complete 7.1 or 7.1.2 setup in my home.

If you use DSU (to upmix sources to use all your speakers) then you will need to enable the “center spread” feature. It is not turned on by default. I originally thought Neo was better than DSU until I enabled the feature.

The DSP stuff is Yamaha trying to improve on the decoders. This is actually kind of fun especially if you have wifi with the phone app so you can use your fingers to expand and contract the dsp effects. Obviously DSP is a Yamaha feature and it doesn’t please everyone. Back in the day when I only had a stereo 2 channel source from cable vs the common 5.1 today, the upmixers were needed and the dsp modes were too. I seldom use the dsp nowadays except for the all channel music one. So I would start with straight and then look at the YPAO eq to be Natural or Flat depending which you like. Then try the dsp and see if they are something you like or not. Good luck!

 

[Bookmark]

I hate to disagree with Snakeeyes, however regarding the Centre Spead feature of the DSU is not required to be turned on for Movies. Centre Spread is for two channel sources where there may be a tendency for it to give undue emphasis to the Centre Speaker, pulling the image toward the centre. It does not hurt to turn it on and if you prefer it on then that is fine.

The Centre Spread option also has serveral hidden parameters including width, dimension and image. These can be adjusted via the web setup, <IP address of the Receiver>/Setup, mine for example is 192.168.1.100/setup. The values mentioned are in the Surround section, Sound_Program_Param sub section for SUR_Decode. It may also be possible to set these from Yamaha's AV Setup app. It is not as far as I am aware settable via the on screen menus.

Regarding your case of 3.0, it is a very good question. I cannot honestly say for sure. Most of the codecs are discrete channels for 5.1 or above. Stereo and Mono would obviously be unaffected. Pro logic, Neo or Neo 6 are actually matrixed Stereo where the information for the centre, rear channels is extracted, so therefore should still work normally. Standard Dolby Digital, True HD, DTS, DTS HD MA are discrete either 5.1 or 7.1. Dolby EX and DTS ES are special cases of the Standard 5.1 formats with matrixed surround rear channels extracted. These should make use of the available speaker channels and so if less than the expected "should" blend with the main Left and Right speakers as is done when there is no dedicated Subwoofer. The main LR speakers should be set to Large, by default when there is no Subwoofer present. The Centre can be either Large or Small, with the frequencies below the cutoff directed to the Left and Right if the Centre is small.

Others here maybe able to give a more definitive answer or Yamaha themselves.

 

[Bookmark]

I should point out that the majority of the sound will be from the main LCR speakers. With arguably ~80% from the Centre channel for movies. The surround and overhead speakers are there to create a more realistic enveloping sound.

 

[snakeeyes]

I hate to disagree with Snakeeyes, however regarding the Centre Spead feature of the DSU is not required to be turned on for Movies. Centre Spread is for two channel sources where there may be a tendency for it to give undue emphasis to the Centre Speaker, pulling the image toward the centre. It does not hurt to turn it on and if you prefer it on then that is fine.

The Centre Spread option also has serveral hidden parameters including width, dimension and image. These can be adjusted via the web setup, <IP address of the Receiver>/Setup, mine for example is 192.168.1.100/setup. The values mentioned are in the Surround section, Sound_Program_Param sub section for SUR_Decode. It may also be possible to set these from Yamaha's AV Setup app. It is not as far as I am aware settable via the on screen menus.

Regarding your case of 3.0, it is a very good question. I cannot honestly say for sure. Most of the codecs are discrete channels for 5.1 or above. Stereo and Mono would obviously be unaffected. Pro logic, Neo or Neo 6 are actually matrixed Stereo where the information for the centre, rear channels is extracted, so therefore should still work normally. Standard Dolby Digital, True HD, DTS, DTS HD MA are discrete either 5.1 or 7.1. Dolby EX and DTS ES are special cases of the Standard 5.1 formats with matrixed surround rear channels extracted. These should make use of the available speaker channels and so if less than the expected "should" blend with the main Left and Right speakers as is done when there is no dedicated Subwoofer. The main LR speakers should be set to Large, by default when there is no Subwoofer present. The Centre can be either Large or Small, with the frequencies below the cutoff directed to the Left and Right if the Centre is small.

Others here maybe able to give a more definitive answer or Yamaha themselves.

I’ll need to experiment more with center spread. To be honest I don’t have many movies in 2.0 but instead every movie is 5.1 minimum for me... Whereas music I hear 2.0 upmixed with DSU regularly... This is good feedback because I do intend to go to 5.1.4 from 5.1 soon and I probably will be using a lot of DSU or DTS Neural for movies...

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I tried using the "Movie - Standard" option, but for some weird reason I get a ton of echos and it generally sounds bad when watching talkshows and so on.

Yamaha’s DSP effects aren’t going to work well with a 3.0 system. They sound best when using front presence speakers and rear-channel surround speakers. What the DSP effects are designed to do is imitate the acoustics of various venues. The extra speakers deliver the “ambient” reflections etc. that would be present in the room. Naturally, you can’t get that effect with only the front speakers. If that’s all your using, the ambient reflections are rolled into them and as you‘ve noted, it just sounds like a mess. With the extra speakers delivering the effects, the front L/R speakers deliver the straight unprocessed sound (not to be confused with the YPAO room correction, which is separate from the DSP effects).

It’s a nice feature, actually, and you’ll quickly find that you like some of the DSP effects more than others. If some seem “too strong,” you should be able to go into the menu and turn the effect down.

I've become a bit paranoid about what DSP is the correct one to use. The manual states that the "Straight" option will take whatever the source material has and just send that out through the speakers. But it is never clear whether that means "we will send out a 7.1 signal and you will loose a ton of audio" or if it forces everything through whatever available channels there are.

With either stereo and 7.1, straight will simply remove any DSP effect processing, and maybe even the YPAO (the manual should say). With a 3.0 system like yours and 7.1 DD content, the back channel sounds will probably be rolled into the left and right speakers.

Bottom line, you would enjoy this system a lot more if you had some surround speakers.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Kevin S]

I use my V571 straight and flat in my 3.1 set up and sounds the best with music & movies out of all the dsp modes.

 

[Vinterbird]

Yamaha’s DSP effects aren’t going to work well with a 3.0 system. They sound best when using front presence speakers and rear-channel surround speakers. What the DSP effects are designed to do is imitate the acoustics of various venues. The extra speakers deliver the “ambient” reflections etc. that would be present in the room. Naturally, you can’t get that effect with only the front speakers. If that’s all your using, the ambient reflections are rolled into them and as you‘ve noted, it just sounds like a mess. With the extra speakers delivering the effects, the front L/R speakers deliver the straight unprocessed sound (not to be confused with the YPAO room correction, which is separate from the DSP effects).

It’s a nice feature, actually, and you’ll quickly find that you like some of the DSP effects more than others. If some seem “too strong,” you should be able to go into the menu and turn the effect down.


With either stereo and 7.1, straight will simply remove any DSP effect processing, and maybe even the YPAO (the manual should say). With a 3.0 system like yours and 7.1 DD content, the back channel sounds will probably be rolled into the left and right speakers.

Bottom line, you would enjoy this system a lot more if you had some surround speakers.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Thanks for the answers, makes a lot more sense now.

The manual seems to make a distinction between "Pure Direct" which disables everything, and "Straight" which should keep YPAO and that stuff, at least that's how I understand the manual. My big fear is whether or not the missing rear + subwoofer information is rolled into the speakers I do actually have, or that sound is lost.

Sadly there simply isn't any room left in my living room to have any rear channels, at the very best I can get some upfiring atmos speakers since they won't take up any floor space or similiar. I just assumed that it would be a better audio experience just getting better speakers, but everything in the manual and everywhere I read it sounds like if I don't roll with a 5.1 system as a bare minimum it might not be worth it at all.