Shure shutting down phono division

S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm a millennial, and have no interest in vinyl because digital is obviously superior in every way. I suppose if I had an old collection I might be more interested, but there isn't much point in buying new albums on vinyl. Spotify premium at 320kbps is transparent, and if I really needed better quality, several companies like onkyo music offer FLAC downloads.

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I had the belief you expressed too but now I’m re-thinking it. In a recent experiment with a particular recording on vinyl, CD, and 24/192 file, I prefer to listen to the vinyl. It sounds better to me in all manner that better can be discerned except for a singular pop on one side of the recording which is a distraction to the experience. At any rate, there is to me no point in declaring digital to be obviously superior.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
At any rate, there is to me no point in declaring digital to be obviously superior.
It would be true to say "digital is technically superior", but yeah, the medium is not the most important item in the reproduction chain.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I had the belief you expressed too but now I’m re-thinking it… … At any rate, there is to me no point in declaring digital to be obviously superior.
It would be true to say "digital is technically superior", but yeah, the medium is not the most important item in the reproduction chain.
There are certainly examples of both analog vinyl and digital CD that seem to sound better to a listener or listeners. In theory digital is technically superior, but in practice too much variability has resulted from decisions made by the person who masters the recording for an easy and clear choice. I'm on the side that likes the CD better, but I am still occasionally surprised at how good a vinyl record can sound.

Back to my original question: Who has actually spent time and effort comparing the sounds of different phono pickups? From the lack of positive answers, I'm ready to conclude that few (if any) people have done it. Many more people have done comparisons among speakers but not phono pickups.

All this leads to a final conclusion. In theory, different energy transducers (pickups and speakers) can make big differences in sound quality. In practice, there is too little evidence to support any conclusions about phono pickups. But, we can easily agree that different speakers do make a big difference.

I've always thought that digital recordings and CDs are nice because they eliminate the possible variations that come during vinyl playback. The variations that may exist among DACs are miniscule. I've done that comparison enough to satisfy myself.
 
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S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
There are certainly examples of both analog vinyl and digital CD that seem to sound better to a listener or listeners. In theory digital is technically superior, but in practice too much variability has resulted from decisions made by the person who masters the recording for an easy and clear choice. I'm on the side that likes the CD better, but I am still occasionally surprised at how good a vinyl record can sound.

Back to my original question: Who has actually spent time and effort comparing the sounds of different phono pickups? From the lack of positive answers, I'm ready to conclude that few (if any) people have done it. Many more people have done comparisons among speakers but not phono pickups.

All this leads to a final conclusion. In theory, different energy transducers (pickups and speakers) can make big differences in sound quality. In practice, there is too little evidence to support any conclusions about phono pickups. But, we can easily agree that different speakers do make a big difference.

I've always thought that digital recordings and CDs are nice because they eliminate the possible variations that come during vinyl playback. The variations that may exist among DACs are miniscule. I've done that comparison enough to satisfy myself.
I think it would be fun to compare and contrast cartridges. What precludes me from doing it is having no money for it. Thus, so far, my contemporary experience has been limited to coming to an understanding for qualities presented by the Shure V15V-MR, Shure M97xE, Shure V15III, and Ortofon 2M Red in my system. What I can say for sure is I prefer the V15-MR over the others; however, the M97xE is so similar to the V15-MR, I do not think I could distinguish one from the other on most occasions. Now, this is a very pleasant surprise, since the M97 is so inexpensive. I will say the alignment jig furnished with the V15V-MR made the proper alignment of that cartridge a breeze. I thought I could use the jig with the M97, since the cartridge bodies seem to be dimensionally the same; but, that is not the case. And, in fact, the M97 was very, very difficult for me to properly mount in the headshell. As far as the Ortofon goes, my Sony headshell (SH-35) will not accommodate it. My turntable requires a 49mm stylus to headshell rear length and I can only get about to 50 with the Ortofon. Also, the Ortofon does not have the correct VTA, which is to high on my non-adjustable tonearm. Thus, this cartridge, even mounted on a headshell which gets me 49mm, does not sound as good as I perceive it might. Overall the Ortofon looks really cool; but, I just can not embrace it. It simply sounds dull in contract to the M97 and V15V. My bottom-line is my V15V-MR satisfies. I have absolutely no compulsion to look to see if the grass is greener on the other side of the hill. Since there is no longer a Shure replacement stylus for this cartridge I will likely replace stylus eventually with a JICO SAS/R, which I am hoping will pick-up (pun intended) where the Shure left off.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
There are certainly examples of both analog vinyl and digital CD that seem to sound better to a listener or listeners. In theory digital is technically superior, but in practice too much variability has resulted from decisions made by the person who masters the recording for an easy and clear choice. I'm on the side that likes the CD better, but I am still occasionally surprised at how good a vinyl record can sound.

Back to my original question: Who has actually spent time and effort comparing the sounds of different phono pickups? From the lack of positive answers, I'm ready to conclude that few (if any) people have done it. Many more people have done comparisons among speakers but not phono pickups.

All this leads to a final conclusion. In theory, different energy transducers (pickups and speakers) can make big differences in sound quality. In practice, there is too little evidence to support any conclusions about phono pickups. But, we can easily agree that different speakers do make a big difference.

I've always thought that digital recordings and CDs are nice because they eliminate the possible variations that come during vinyl playback. The variations that may exist among DACs are miniscule. I've done that comparison enough to satisfy myself.
Sorry for not getting back to this sooner.

In another post I addressed some of the reasons an LP might sound better than the later CD version. So I will paste this here.

Your issue of the CD being worse than the LP can happen. The problems are many. It depends which tape master was archived. Was it the original first edited master from the original sessions, or is it the master for the cutting lathe? If the latter there will be a problem. Next tapes deteriorate over time, some brands worse than others. Ampex tapes used extensively for US recordings have been a particular problem in this regard. Whereas EMITAPE used by the European EMI group seems to have very long legs as does German BASF.

Then we get the issue of how well the tape machine to play back the tape master for CD is set up. There are now far too few people who know how to do this properly.

RCA recordings have a particular problem. RCA used a proprietary tape equalization constants. These have been lost and dumped into the demo barge on the Delaware river, when their old headquarters was demolished. So they are played back with NAB Eq usually which is not quite correct. I have some CDs from RCA masters and you can tell the playback equalization is a little off so they play back hot and do not sound as good as the original LP pressings.

When Robert Fines widow, Wilma Cozart, had a tape machine specially built in Japan to do the CD and SACD transfers of the Mercury Living Presence recordings. She was in her nineties when she did this, and did a fabulous job. Most don't take nearly that much care.

As far as A/B cartridges unless you have several turntables that is difficult. You have to change cartridges which is risky, and then set up the whole turntable each time you change.

I do have multiple cartridges. However I actually only use the Shure V15 xmr cartridges most of the time. I do use my Decca ffss. These cartridges have no cantilever. They are variable reluctance with a diamond at the end of an iron rod suspended by a nylon thread embedded in coils between the poles of a powerful magnet. The delicacy of these and the later Decca London cartridges is legendary. They make for detailed transparent reproduction. However the Shure wins in trackability because of its compliance. The Decca will turn in a superb performance with the right recording. The Shures will play most recordings best and not loose it in heavy modulation, especially on the inside grooves.

Now my SME series III arms have the headshell and carrying arm as one unit. So if you have multiple carrying arms as I do, then you do not have to remount the cartridge. However you do have to reset up as the cartridges are different weights and lengths.

Deeca London Gold Mk IV



View of cartridge in SME series III carrying arm.



That is a 2K cartridge I got for nothing. When I bought my Thorens TD 125 Mk II not working and fixed it, I bought another SME series III of an eBay seller. He had that Decca Gold and wanted to know if he could include it, as he did not know if it was any good! I said yes, please.
I used it for some time on that turntable. That is how you stretch your dollars.



However good as they can sound on the right LP, I bought another Shure V15 xmr NOS on eBay.





I do have a couple of moving coils, a Goldring and an Orfofon, but don't use them as in addition to doing another set up, I have to change the phono preamp module in the Quad 34 preamp.

Basically whenever I get the urge to change a cartridge I always end up coming back to the Shure V 15 xmr, which never fail to get the best out of the most difficult to track recordings. In essence those cartridges make least fuss with total absence of temperament, which is why I rate them the greatest pickup cartridges of all time totally irrespective of price. That made them at $500 a pop the best value for the dollar also.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for your detailed response. You made it clear that you if you had to pick one cartridge over any other you prefer the Shure V15 xmr.

I appreciated your comments about mastering and equalization, such as RCA's proprietary, and now lost, tape eq constants.
As far as A/B cartridges unless you have several turntables that is difficult. You have to change cartridges which is risky, and then set up the whole turntable each time you change.
I now remember I once saw, at an audio show (where else?), a turntable with two tonearms. (See an example in the photo below.) I'd never seen such a thing before. I asked, why two tone arms? It was in a room run by a very serious dealer from NYC who aimed for audiophile customers with more money than sense. This dealer also displayed very large German-made speakers with horn loaded tweeters (they sounded dreadful) driven by flea powered (3.5 watt) SET tube amps. He bristled at my two tonearm question, so I avoided any further conversation with him.

I now see that two tonearms on one turntable could be used to compare two different pickup cartridges. It would avoid the remounting difficulties. Any preamp requirements, if comparing a MM pickup to a low output MC pickup, would be a separate matter.

 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for your detailed response. You made it clear that you if you had to pick one cartridge over any other you prefer the Shure V15 xmr.

I appreciated your comments about mastering and equalization, such as RCA's proprietary, and now lost, tape eq constants.
I now remember I once saw, at an audio show (where else?), a turntable with two tonearms. (See an example in the photo below.) I'd never seen such a thing before. I asked, why two tone arms? It was in a room run by a very serious dealer from NYC who aimed for audiophile customers with more money than sense. This dealer also displayed very large German-made speakers with horn loaded tweeters (they sounded dreadful) driven by flea powered (3.5 watt) SET tube amps. He bristled at my two tonearm question, so I avoided any further conversation with him.

I now see that two tonearms on one turntable could be used to compare two different pickup cartridges. It would avoid the remounting difficulties. Any preamp requirements if a MM pickup was compared to a low output MC pickup would be a separate matter.

That turntable is a Goldring Lenco and sixties vintage likely.

Those turntables are an idler driven turntable, but the motor pulley is conical. The speed is varies by the speed control sliding the idler wheel up and down the conical Spindle/pulley.

So this turntable has a wide adjustable speed range. They are highly sort after by 78 rpm enthusiasts because of this feature. There was a lot of speed variation on the 78 rpm era, as that was only a suggestion and different firms had different speed standards. With the old spring wind up turntables and the early electric turntable had a gimbal governor like on an old steam engine, and the speed control pulled in or let out the fly weights.

The arms on that turntable are the Lemco arm, the other is the 12" version of the SME series II improved arm.

So this turntable could have had, and probably did have multiple functions. It would be capable of pro 78 disc archiving and the SME arm would have allowed the playing of over sized WW II vinyl 78 rpm disc that were used by the allied forces and are a hot collector item.

Those turntables fetch serious money.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
That turntable is a Goldring Lenco and sixties vintage likely.
That photo was meant only as an example of a turntable with two tonearms. I chose it only because it clearly showed both tonearms. I did not recognize the specific turntable I saw at that audio show. Nor did I ask. I should have been more clear about that.

For entertainment, look at the results of a Google image search for "turntable two tonearms".
https://www.google.com/search?q=turntable+two+tonearms&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ6pXX5-7aAhWiiOAKHTVMAxEQsAQIiAE&biw=1054&bih=619
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That photo was meant only as an example of a turntable with two tonearms. I chose it only because it clearly showed both tonearms. I did not recognize the specific turntable I saw at that audio show. Nor did I ask. I should have been more clear about that.

For entertainment, look at the results of a Google image search for "turntable two tonearms".
https://www.google.com/search?q=turntable+two+tonearms&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ6pXX5-7aAhWiiOAKHTVMAxEQsAQIiAE&biw=1054&bih=619
It was a good opportunity to talk about some interesting gramophone history. Those forces discs, were called V-Discs, and came in 12 and 16 inch sizes on vinyl.

You can listen to some here.

I have friends in Minneapolis who have a large collection of the 16" vinyl 78 discs, that someone just gave to them and they do nothing with except store them. I can't play them as I don't have a 12" arm.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
That photo was meant only as an example of a turntable with two tonearms. I chose it only because it clearly showed both tonearms. I did not recognize the specific turntable I saw at that audio show. Nor did I ask. I should have been more clear about that.

For entertainment, look at the results of a Google image search for "turntable two tonearms".
https://www.google.com/search?q=turntable+two+tonearms&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ6pXX5-7aAhWiiOAKHTVMAxEQsAQIiAE&biw=1054&bih=619
Some mount three arms....
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Well, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a spare M97xe.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Wise move, and I would buy a spare stylus or two just in case of accidents.
Yeah, but the stylus is $60, or the complete assembly with the little storage/display case and the hardware and screwdriver and brush is $100.

At that point, I almost just rather get another spare complete set.

Hold onto it for 10 years and make a $.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, but the stylus is $60, or the complete assembly with the little storage/display case and the hardware and screwdriver and brush is $100.

At that point, I almost just rather get another spare complete set.

Hold onto it for 10 years and make a $.
FWIW there are some in a FB group I belong to who swear this replacement stylus is the bomb for the cartridge....but since it costs more than the cart it doesn't particularly appeal to me.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm not going to buy a spare; but, I may send the one I bought about a year ago back for repair or replacement, since the other day the cartridge fell apart. Yes, the die cast piece and cartridge body came apart, that's to say the glue holding them together failed. I don't know if that's one of Shure's quality control issues but I know I am kind of stunned, having nothing but praise for this cartridge until now.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hey now, I'm "technically" a millennial, but apparently since I'm an "old" millennial we got our own special sub group that I can't seem to find...

Anyway, it's really those darn baby boomers running these companies into the ground...:eek:
I'm a boomer...tail end (early 60s), but I do think we have screwed up quite a few companies actually.

My daughter doesn't think she's a millennial either, certainly doesn't "like" the designation...Gen X? not sure what else is out there.

Bottom line...physical media is going away slowly, but surely....imo vinyl got a boost from Boomers and curious "others", but apparently not enough to support the manufacturing.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
A little over a week ago, my M97xE came un-glued. I was attempting to get an exacting 49mm stylus to headshell tail distance as is the specification for my turntable. I had a problem doing this, apparently caused by a burr under the head of one of my mounting screws, which made it impossible to make the adjustment hold; and, attempting to just lightly tap the cartridge in place with the handle of my magnifying glass, the cartridge body separated from its die cast mount. I sent the broken cartridge to Shure; and, in just a day after they received it, I received a replacement at no charge, which was a surprise as I expected they would just re-assemble the broken cartridge. Now, I've gotta tell ya, that's service. At any rate, I now will study methods of mounting this replacement cartridge to achieve the desired alignment, which brings me to my point: I also own an Ortofon 2M Red. It cost me about $100 as did my 97xE. The Ortofon was easy to align perfectly within a few minutes, not the case with the Shure. In spite of this, that's to say having perfect alignment with the Ortofon and not so certain alignment with the Shure, the Shure still has sounded better to me on most of my records. Once again, I'm sorry that Shure is closing its cartridge operation. Ironically, I see that retailers are now asking $200 for the 97xE. I'm sure they'll get it, since owners of this cartridge like me know it delivers an experience much like the V15V-MR, which, even at $200 is a very good deal.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
So what does the Shure M97xE sound like? Here's a video I made of mine playing Diana Krall singing You Go To My Head. Rather than hearing it from my speakers, you will hear the piece as digitized using Roxio's Easy LP to mp3 recording program, applying pop filter. Play through your home theatre and I think you'd be hard pressed to fault the cartridge.

 
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