Is new AVR worth it?

[KEW]

Just to cover the options, Accessories4Less has the 7200 for $1400 as a refurb with one year Denon warranty. whether refurb is worth the $400 savings is up to you. This is what I would do, because I have had great results with the refurb's I have bought fom A4L, but there are reports of getting defective units. In any case, A4L has always been reported to deal with the situation in a fair and professional manner.

I would still add at least one $10-$20 Infinity fan to help cooling it for even better longevity. This applies to just about any recent models of any brand.

I noticed that this unit already has two fans built-in! Certainly, an additional fan could further assist, but it won't have as much impact as it would on an AVR that used natural convection (no fan) for cooling.
Most importantly, if a fan is added, make sure you determine which way the current fans blow and ensure your fan blows in the same direction. Usually they blow up to operate in concert with the natural tendency of heat to rise, but, either way, if the fans are working against each other you would effectively reduce the air circulation and increase the load on the fans which could limit the fan life to below what the design team intended.

 

[PENG]

Just to cover the options, Accessories4Less has the 7200 for $1400 as a refurb with one year Denon warranty. whether refurb is worth the $400 savings is up to you. This is what I would do, because I have had great results with the refurb's I have bought fom A4L, but there are reports of getting defective units. In any case, A4L has always been reported to deal with the situation in a fair and professional manner.



I noticed that this unit already has two fans built-in! Certainly, an additional fan could further assist, but it won't have as much impact as it would on an AVR that used natural convection (no fan) for cooling.
Most importantly, if a fan is added, make sure you determine which way the current fans blow and ensure your fan blows in the same direction. Usually they blow up to operate in concert with the natural tendency of heat to rise, but, either way, if the fans are working against each other you would effectively reduce the air circulation and increase the load on the fans which could limit the fan life to below what the design team intended.

The potential issue with the internal fans is that they might have been set up to turn on early enough to prevent the unit from heat related damage but not soon enough to avoid taking a hit in terms of longevity. I am saying this because I have never seen any users complain about the fan noise of any recent Denon models that have such internal fans. That tells me Denon probably decided to include those two fans to help avoid claims by users who don't provide adequate ventilation, within the 3 year warranty period.

 

[KEW]

The potential issue with the internal fans is that they might have been set up to turn on early enough to prevent the unit from heat related damage but not soon enough to avoid taking a hit in terms of longevity. I am saying this because I have never seen any users complain about the fan noise of any recent Denon models that have such internal fans. That tells me Denon probably decided to include those two fans to help avoid claims by users who don't provide adequate ventilation, within the 3 year warranty period.

Ahh!
I had not considered that they may have set the fans to support the warranty period rather than overall longevity.
I like to not be so cynical, but that may be a naive luxury!

Do you know if there is a convention?
The one fan I have access to blows towards the labeled side (which would indicate the fans in the pic of the Denon blow into the case), but I have no idea if that is a convention.

 

[PENG]

Ahh!
I had not considered that they may have set the fans to support the warranty period rather than overall longevity.
I like to not be so cynical, but that may be a naive luxury!

Do you know if there is a convention?
The one fan I have access to blows towards the labeled side (which would indicate the fans in the pic of the Denon blow into the case), but I have no idea if that is a convention.

I don't know if there is a convention, but the ones I have, do blow to the labeled side. I am quite sure the Denon/Marantz fans blow to the top of the case, and obviously to the bottom of the heat sinks.

For an expensive flag ship receiver, it just make sense to spend $10-$20 on external fans just to be on the safe side. The Marantz SR8012 has 4 fans (may be smaller but not sure), so if I were to spend C$5000 on an AVR-X8500H I will definitely invest on external fans.

I am concerned that for such feature loaded AVRs they may not worry much about longevity >5 years and they would probably prefer to avoid people complaining about fan noise that would for sure hurt sales. It's just a guess, and I don't know if I would be right, 3/4, 1/2 right or totally wrong on what I said about those internal fans.

 

[KEW]

I don't know if there is a convention, but the ones I have, do blow to the labeled side. I am quite sure the Denon/Marantz fans blow to the top of the case, and obviously to the bottom of the heat sinks.

For an expensive flag ship receiver, it just make sense to spend $10-$20 on external fans just to be on the safe side. The Marantz SR8012 has 4 fans (may be smaller but not sure), so if I were to spend C$5000 on an AVR-X8500H I will definitely invest on external fans.

I am concerned that for such feature loaded AVRs they may not worry much about longevity >5 years and they would probably prefer to avoid people complaining about fan noise that would for sure hurt sales. It's just a guess, and I don't know if I would be right, 3/4, 1/2 right or totally wrong on what I said about those internal fans.

I am in complete agreement with you. Just want to make sure any additional fans were blowing in the same direction. It makes sense that it would be blowing upward and I suspect that if an external fan was added the internal fans would never come on if the internal fans are on a thermostat.

 

[PENG]

I am in complete agreement with you. Just want to make sure any additional fans were blowing in the same direction. It makes sense that it would be blowing upward and I suspect that if an external fan was added the internal fans would never come on if the internal fans are on a thermostat.

I have read more than once that owners claimed the internal fans never turned on. If true, then they are likely temperature controlled, likely by a sensor mounted somewhere on the heat sinks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, four 120 mm USB fans = $40 from Amazon. Stick them atop the chassis and blow the air upward.

Of course, the room that the AVR is in also needs to have good temperature.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just to cover the options, Accessories4Less has the 7200 for $1400 as a refurb with one year Denon warranty. whether refurb is worth the $400 savings is up to you.

I would gladly pay $400 more for a brand new flagship component.

 

[KEW]

I would gladly pay $400 more for a brand new flagship component.

I know. Not only did you receive DOA products, but the retailers you dealt with were not professional about making it right, IIRC. The impression I got was they were down to the returned units and cycling through them as replacement units in the hope that one would stick!
That would leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth!

 

[snakeeyes]

I’m surprised you guys aren’t recommending to simply replace the LSI9s with different sides and using the receiver bass management with the LFE input on the Rythmik 15 to relieve the load a bit on sides and rears and center. I wonder if a dipole or bipole wouldn’t be better for home theater surrounds...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know. Not only did you receive DOA products, but the retailers you dealt with were not professional about making it right, IIRC. The impression I got was they were down to the returned units and cycling through them as replacement units in the hope that one would stick!
That would leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth!

Yeah, multiple bad experiences with 2 different Authorized Refurbish retailers plus bad experience with the main Denon Repair center in New Jersey.

That’s why the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to just get something like the X3000 series for $600. If it lasts longer than 3 YR then that’s great. My X3000s have lasted longer. But if not, buy a new one.

I have no faith in any repair centers when it comes to these highly complex machines.

 

[PENG]

I’m surprised you guys aren’t recommending to simply replace the LSI9s with different sides and using the receiver bass management with the LFE input on the Rythmik 15 to relieve the load a bit on sides and rears and center. I wonder if a dipole or bipole wouldn’t be better for home theater surrounds...

Because you can't polish a RX-V863..

 

[KEW]

Yeah, multiple bad experiences with 2 different Authorized Refurbish retailers plus bad experience with the main Denon Repair center in New Jersey.

That’s why the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to just get something like the X3000 series for $600. If it lasts longer than 3 YR then that’s great. My X3000s have lasted longer. But if not, buy a new one.

I have no faith in any repair centers when it comes to these highly complex machines.

I thank, aside from the basic power amp which has not changed too much, repair is all about modules.
But you make a very good point. AVR's are definitely high on the list of complex devices!

 

[snakeeyes]

Because you can't polish a RX-V863..

Ya it’s long in the tooth for sure... LOL

 

[lovinthehd]

Ya it’s long in the tooth for sure... LOL

Or too big a turd.

 

[pinky & the brain]

Sounds like you are a good candidate for the outgoing (you mentioned budget is not unlimited) Denon top model, the AVR-X7200WA.

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X7200WA-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B00XIG6LYC

At the current price of $1800, nothing can touch it. It has the latest sound format, Audyssey Platinum for room equalization, top AK4490 DAC (digital to analog converter) that is the same one used in the newest $4,500 Marantz AV8805 processor and the $4,000 Denon AVR-X8500H). Like the comparable RX-A3060, it has been bench tested by S&V to produce the following power output into 4-ohm loads.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a3060-av-receiver-review-test-bench

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x7200w-av-receiver-test-bench

Two channel driven continuously into 4-ohm loads:
234.7 watts at 0.1% distortion
265.5 watts at 1.0% distortion

Five channels driven into 8-ohm loads:
122.3 watts at 0.1% distortion
138 watts at 1.0% distortion

Compared to the Yamaha RX-A3060, Denon has better looking distortion vs output graph, much lower cross talk, and marginally better signal-to-noise ratio. The Denon also has much better 5 and 7 channel driven outputs.

The AVR-X7200WA apparently has a "real" pre-amp mode because according to the online manual (scroll down to the end).

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX7200WA/NA/EN/BIAJSYjhudqdih.php

"This stops operation of the internal power amplifier of this unit, reducing interference in the pre amplifier created by the power amplifier."

I don't believe it will improve sound quality, but it might improve it's reliability and longevity when used with a multi-channel external amplifier. I would still add at least one $10-$20 Infinity fan to help cooling it for even better longevity. This applies to just about any recent models of any brand.

With this flag ship AVR, you can definitely use a 300 WPC external amplifier to drive the big 95f only, or use the AVR in pre-amp mode by adding a Monolith 7 channel amp.

The bottom line is, your HT room, the big 95f, and the LSI9 deserves much better than the anemic RX-V863.

I wish I had seen this yesterday before we went to Best Buy Magnolia center to demo Marantz. It was really hard to judge how it might sound with our speakers. But after spending what felt like an eternity comparing yamaha and marantz, we decided to go ahead and order the Marantz SR8012. (mainly because I think the tweeters on the Paradigms are too bright and am hoping it will mellow them out without losing sound quality).

We have 2 weeks to return it, once it comes in, if we don't like it. What are your thoughts on this one? We know what Yamaha sounds like and like it, but it's the only brand we've had since the Kenwood from the 90's.

Kind of scared to order Receivers off of Amazon, have heard lots of manufacturers don't like to honor warranty ~ and wanted to make sure we at least had that. Have no idea quality of Marantz compared to Yamaha. Hoping the specs are honest and that this one will be enough without an amp.

 

[pinky & the brain]

Bluetooth streaming can also be added fairly inexpensively.

If you really want to get a new AVR sooner, would watch over the next few months. With the latest models starting to ship, you can often find last year’s model at a significant discount. It is pretty common to get up to 50% off the older model.

For your size room, still would lean towards a separate amp across the front speakers. To get comparable amplification, you need a high end AVR and it has more to fail and often is not the best value.

Ww

We actually do have bluetooth connected via adapters on the yamaha. We aren't getting rid of our "Old Turd" but will use it in another room. It has been very reliable and hopefully continues for a long time (or at least as long as we have 1080 tv's).

I'm hoping a separate amp will not be necessary. And you're absolutely correct in new model avr not having the best value. but... I've been asking for a year or so to upgrade and finally got a reluctant go ahead, so I jumped on it. I think I've pushed my luck as far as I can for now with all the speakers, subwoofer and receiver. Will definitely have to wait a while for any further upgrade, like new rear speakers and Atmos speakers, 4k tv and 4k blu ray player

On the other hand, we don't have any speakers in the bedroom........... yet...

 

[snakeeyes]

We actually do have bluetooth connected via adapters on the yamaha. We aren't getting rid of our "Old Turd" but will use it in another room. It has been very reliable and hopefully continues for a long time (or at least as long as we have 1080 tv's).

I'm hoping a separate amp will not be necessary. And you're absolutely correct in new model avr not having the best value. but... I've been asking for a year or so to upgrade and finally got a reluctant go ahead, so I jumped on it. I think I've pushed my luck as far as I can for now with all the speakers, subwoofer and receiver. Will definitely have to wait a while for any further upgrade, like new rear speakers and Atmos speakers, 4k tv and 4k blu ray player

On the other hand, we don't have any speakers in the bedroom........... yet...

Ya see how the Marantz performs in your space.

Possibly the older Yamaha with the LSI9s or one of the other speaker pairs in the bedroom would be cool... I have a RXV681 with pretty small Q Acoustics 3020 6 ohm bookshelf speakers and a Rythmik L12 sub in a 1400 cubic feet bedroom. Also the 3090 matching center speaker from Q Acoustics. It is a fun setup especially in 2.1 for music! Just it is not my home theater room...

My 2003 RXV3300 lasted me a glorious 14 years in my 2600 cubic feet Theater room before my 2016 RXA2060 replaced it in October so there’s a good reference point. I think your 863 has a bit of life left in it in the right size space assuming you don’t have audiophile trained ears ...

 

[lovinthehd]

I wish I had seen this yesterday before we went to Best Buy Magnolia center to demo Marantz. It was really hard to judge how it might sound with our speakers. But after spending what felt like an eternity comparing yamaha and marantz, we decided to go ahead and order the Marantz SR8012. (mainly because I think the tweeters on the Paradigms are too bright and am hoping it will mellow them out without losing sound quality).

We have 2 weeks to return it, once it comes in, if we don't like it. What are your thoughts on this one? We know what Yamaha sounds like and like it, but it's the only brand we've had since the Kenwood from the 90's.

Kind of scared to order Receivers off of Amazon, have heard lots of manufacturers don't like to honor warranty ~ and wanted to make sure we at least had that. Have no idea quality of Marantz compared to Yamaha. Hoping the specs are honest and that this one will be enough without an amp.

I think the whole process of demoing electronics in such a way is a waste of time. What exactly are you comparing? Especially not with your speakers in your room?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the whole process of demoing electronics in such a way is a waste of time.

Unless they are trying to see how the different EQ sound, right?

Less likely, but possibly to also see if the AVR can push some speakers to high volume from a distance, unless the AVR will only be used as a Pre-Pro.

For example, I love Audyssey DEQ, so when I see an Anthem Processor, I check out their Dolby Leveler EQ.

But in Direct modes, it is a waste of time comparing electronics.