needing some help with my stereo imaging problem - so close...

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Hi, here's a link to the speakers. They're Modula MTM's. Most of the pertinent info is on the first page.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?11321-Modula-MTM-1-Design-and-Construction-Details

* ShadyJ thanks for the web page link - I'll check those audio files out. As to moving things around I can't move the seats as they're positioned inline with the side surrounds and also centered below the atmos ceiling speakers. I can however pull the L/R's right on out into the room for some testing.
* IrvRobinson - I'll double check and see if anything is configured for mono. Note, the L/R's do run off an external stereo receiver.
* TLS Guy - regarding breakup modes - all these are aluminum drivers and have a very steep xover to tamp down distortion outside the passband. These have a cauer-elliptic crossover emulating 8th order L-R for first octave.
* Much thanks to everyone for their ideas!
I see problems with that design.

The woofers being metal do have an enormous break up mode, taken care of with very high order filters and a complex circuit. I don't like it. For one thing the crossover is far too low for that tweeter. My main objections is that the design is going to be awash in time and corresponding phase shifts.

I also use metal drivers and have long experience with them.

The trick is to use lower order filters and a higher crossover and make the crossover components also act as the blocking resonant filter for the break up mode.

I'm just about to leave for an extended trip to the Canadian Maritime Provinces.

However remind me down the road to work on a totally new approach to the crossovers for those speakers. I think the performance of those drivers in those speakers can likely be significantly improved.

I'm not surprised you have a degree of unhappiness with those speakers.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Also, try moving the speakers inward, aim for 11 ft between them, or 12 ft but sit further back 2 ft, i.e., move the couch back two feet. After that you should only need to fine tune the toe in angle. As mentioned, the recording plays the most important part, but it does look to me the speakers are two far part.
Did you try this ? I think PENG is correct, your speakers are to far apart for good stereo imaging as it relates to 2 channel music playback.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I see problems with that design.

The woofers being metal do have an enormous break up mode, taken care of with very high order filters and a complex circuit. I don't like it. For one thing the crossover is far too low for that tweeter. My main objections is that the design is going to be awash in time and corresponding phase shifts.

I also use metal drivers and have long experience with them.

The trick is to use lower order filters and a higher crossover and make the crossover components also act as the blocking resonant filter for the break up mode.

I'm just about to leave for an extended trip to the Canadian Maritime Provinces.

However remind me down the road to work on a totally new approach to the crossovers for those speakers. I think the performance of those drivers in those speakers can likely be significantly improved.

I'm not surprised you have a degree of unhappiness with those speakers.
Good luck on your trip. Monction New Brunswick ( the city is a hole) is where I from. Maritimers are an extremely friendly people as a whole.

Things to see..New Brunswick:
"Reversing Falls" at Saint John, "The Rocks" at Hopewell, "Tidal Bore" in Moncton. Whale watching off of Grand Manan Island.


Things to see in Nova Scotia.
"Peggy's Cove", "Fortress Louisberg", Halifax City.. has a vibrant night life but can be dangerous .
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
If the tweeters are offset they should be on the inside edge and NOT the outside.
As far as I understand it, tweeters are offset to minimize cabinet edge diffraction at high frequencies. High frequency sound coming from a tweeter will interact with cabinet edges, causing small peaks and valleys in the frequency range of about 4 to 8 kHz. The exact frequency is determined by the distance from the tweeter to the cabinet edge.

If the tweeter is centered in a narrow cabinet, there will be two tweeter-to-edge distances that are the same. They will sum together, creating the possibility that the larger peaks and valleys will be more audible. If the tweeter is slightly off center, there will be two slightly different tweeter-to-edge distances. They may generate more peaks and valleys, but they will be smaller in amplitude. The idea is that these more numerous but smaller diffraction peaks are less likely to be heard.

A crossover is designed and optimized with the tweeter mounted either centered or off center. This is done by while measuring a single speaker. No stereo imaging is considered during that process.

People often ask whether speakers with offset tweeters should be placed with the tweeters toward the center or toward the outside. There is no clear answer, but it's easy to listen both ways. I tried this with my own speakers – I cannot tell any difference.

Most speakers that create poor stereo images suffer from some lack of response in the upper mid range. In a 2-way design, this is usually a problem that can be fixed in the crossover. I do agree with TLS Guy on that.
Interesting observation about offset tweeters. The Audioengine 5+ I use in my desktop system have offset tweeters and AE specifically recommends placing the speakers so that the tweeters are offset to the outside. I'm not sure it matters in a near field setup like mine, but interesting nonetheless.
That sounds to me more like marketing talk than speaker designer talk.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
I'm still unsure if the OP has realistic expectations. Does he expect his speakers to perform the same trickery as Maggies (he mentioned those specifically as bringing tears to his eyes in post #7, but that's an apples to oranges comparison with his direct radiator speakers).
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
You lost me. Whose talk? Mine or Audioengine's?
I realize these are self-powered speakers where left and right speakers are hard wired. But when Audioengine recommended placing the speakers so the tweeters are offset to the outside because it produced better imaging, I thought it sounded like marketing talk.
 
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Mazen

Mazen

Audiophyte
I'm still unsure if the OP has realistic expectations. Does he expect his speakers to perform the same trickery as Maggies (he mentioned those specifically as bringing tears to his eyes in post #7, but that's an apples to oranges comparison with his direct radiator speakers).
Whoa now... no tears - ever. Goosebumps yes. LOL, and yes I'm fully aware of the difference between dipole, bipole, planar & ESL types. I'm not unrealistic in my expectations in that I feel there's a better way to position my L/R's for a wider sound stage. I also know that may not be a good fit given a I have 120 inch screen between them. Sometimes just learning how to solve a problem is almost as rewarding as actually solving the problem.
 
Mazen

Mazen

Audiophyte
...
However remind me down the road to work on a totally new approach to the crossovers for those speakers. I think the performance of those drivers in those speakers can likely be significantly improved...
That's very generous of you & I'll definitely take you up on that offer. If you use SoundEasy that would be a bonus for me as well.
 
Mazen

Mazen

Audiophyte
As TLS Guy said, try swapping the left/right so the tweeters are on the inside. Also, try moving the speakers inward, aim for 11 ft between them, or 12 ft but sit further back 2 ft, i.e., move the couch back two feet. After that you should only need to fine tune the toe in angle. As mentioned, the recording plays the most important part, but it does look to me the speakers are two far part.
Well, I started off at 11' wide, then outward to 13' when I first posted here. Now back to 11' and moved them out from the front wall to 42 inches at the front baffle. It definitely sounds better here. Whether straight or toed in, both sound good - just slightly different in bass response and how the image fills that space. I like both for different reasons. Fortunately my stands' top plate will swivel to support both.


 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, I started off at 11' wide, then outward to 13' when I first posted here. Now back to 11' and moved them out from the front wall to 42 inches at the front baffle. It definitely sounds better here. Whether straight or toed in, both sound good - just slightly different in bass response and how the image fills that space. I like both for different reasons. Fortunately my stands' top plate will swivel to support both.


Thank you for trying. My suggesting of closing them in is based on my own experience. If you started with 11 ft, I think you will most likely do even better going with 10 - 10.5 ft and reduce the toe in. Or leave it at 11 ft, but move the couch back by about 1.5 ft.

Another thing you can do to sharpen imaging is to make sure the left and right channel are as accurately balanced as possible in your listening position. I know many don't believe in room EQ and want to do it manually, but in my experience if you have Audyssey XT32 or even just XT, it is better to run that process first to balance the level/phase, and go from there. I don't have experience with the latest YPAO but I am sure it can go a good job balancing the levels too.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Ha! I never noticed that. Almost as bad as when the Revel web site had the tweeter and midrange driver descriptions reversed. Sometimes copy editors and photographers lack product expertise.

While the set-up guide does specifically recommend placing the speakers such that the tweeters are on the outside:

https://audioengineusa.com/setupguides/A5_plus setup guide_web.pdf

And the RCA input jack labels are only correct when the tweeters are on the outside, you can just reverse them and see if they sound better the other way. If I'm bored this weekend perhaps I'll try that. (Of course, switching the channels with the mini-phone plug input would require making a special cable.)

To be completely honest, placing any small monitor at the rear of the surface of a large desk beside and close to a large glass monitor is going to compromise fidelity and imaging. I measured the 5+ when I first got them, and they measure a lot better on stands two feet from the back wall and without a big monitor in the middle than they do on my desk, and they sounded a lot better on stands too.
 
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Mazen

Mazen

Audiophyte
Hey, just wanted to get back with some results. I ended up with the LR's at 11 ft apart and 40 inches front baffle to the screen wall. No toe in. Got my acoustic traps built and installed (below), then ran Audyssey32 again. Discovered HDtracks online, bought some hi bitrate tracks. Denon 4300 in Stereo Pure mode and it sounds awesome! So lush, it's really a dramatic difference in stage imaging. Also, I listened to my tracks at a local home theater meet n greet and compared my $1k diy speakers vs some much more pricey speakers and the only one that was noticiably better was the $6k Paradigm Persona B's which threw a huge image even in the second row of theater seats. So thanks to everyone, the journey was both educational & rewarding.

 

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