needing some help with my stereo imaging problem - so close...

[Mazen]

Hi, I'm having trouble getting a wider, more separated, realistic stereo image. Meaning I get a very strong, centered audio image, but the entire band seems to be dead center along with the vocalist for the most part.
I'm using 3 & 4 piece bands, female vocalists, & hi res flac files. I read that just moving your speaker even 1 inch makes a noticble difference re imaging. So, I moved mine at least 20 times and experimented with toe in at each move. I was able to drastically improve the general imaging quality as I never did that when I finished the theater & brought in the main L/C/R speakers. Could this just be the best the speakers can do?
I was really hoping for a genuine wow factor with this being a new home theater. Which is crazy to hear myself say because just 5 yrs ago I would have killed for this room, now I keep raising the bar.
Here's some details if it helps:
MTM style speakers, rear port, w/ offset tweeters on the outside edge
Speakers are 13 ft apart & 5 ft and 10 ft from side walls, 36 in from front wall. 13 ft to listening position.
Room is 25w x 22d x 8h. Carpeted basement, currently building acoustic trap wall posters.
Denon 4300x avr with Audyssey set to flat, sub off in stereo mode, all other features off like eq, etc.

https://imgur.com/GziAFHV

 

[MrBoat]

Maybe not so much what the speakers can do but what your room can. Is that all you have in there is L/C/R? Looks like it ought to be minimum 5.2 system or so.

 

[shadyJ]

No, moving your speakers an inch isn't going to have a dramatic effect on imaging. Assuming your speakers were competently engineered, a lot of imaging comes from the recording. Listen to the recordings on this page. If you can follow the sounds as they pan across the soundstage, then your system is fine. There is also the possibility that your listening position is too far back from the speakers if you aren't getting a wide soundstage. You might either move your speakers closer to your seating or your seating closer to your speakers.

 

[MrBoat]

No, moving your speakers an inch isn't going to have a dramatic effect on imaging. Assuming your speakers were competently engineered, a lot of imaging comes from the recording. Listen to the recordings on this page. If you can follow the sounds as they pan across the soundstage, then your system is fine. There is also the possibility that your listening position is too far back from the speakers if you aren't getting a wide soundstage. You might either move your speakers closer to your seating or your seating closer to your speakers.

Thanks for the recordings link. That was interesting.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi, I'm having trouble getting a wider, more separated, realistic stereo image. Meaning I get a very strong, centered audio image, but the entire band seems to be dead center along with the vocalist for the most part.
I'm using 3 & 4 piece bands, female vocalists, & hi res flac files. I read that just moving your speaker even 1 inch makes a noticble difference re imaging. So, I moved mine at least 20 times and experimented with toe in at each move. I was able to drastically improve the general imaging quality as I never did that when I finished the theater & brought in the main L/C/R speakers. Could this just be the best the speakers can do?
I was really hoping for a genuine wow factor with this being a new home theater. Which is crazy to hear myself say because just 5 yrs ago I would have killed for this room, now I keep raising the bar.
Here's some details if it helps:
MTM style speakers, rear port, w/ offset tweeters on the outside edge
Speakers are 13 ft apart & 5 ft and 10 ft from side walls, 36 in from front wall. 13 ft to listening position.
Room is 25w x 22d x 8h. Carpeted basement, currently building acoustic trap wall posters.
Denon 4300x avr with Audyssey set to flat, sub off in stereo mode, all other features off like eq, etc.

https://imgur.com/GziAFHV

What are those speakers? If the tweeters are offset they should be on the inside edge and NOT the outside.

Usually what you complain about is a speaker problem. We need precise details of those speakers.

 

[Leemix]

Toe in might be needed, worthwhile to try out.
A lot of recordings lack decent imaging though.


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[Mazen]

Maybe not so much what the speakers can do but what your room can. Is that all you have in there is L/C/R? Looks like it ought to be minimum 5.2 system or so.

Hi, you're right - it's a 7.2.4 config. Movies sound great. In fact, I never would have even questioned my setup if I hadn't gone shopping for the Denon avr & been inadverdantly exposed to some Magnepan 1.7 speakers. They imaged so well I got literal goose bumps. Being on a blue collar factory salary means I gotta make do for a while as it takes some time to save up that much cash

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[Mazen]

Toe in might be needed, worthwhile to try out.
A lot of recordings lack decent imaging though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's an old pic. I followed the setup guide linked here in the forum re speaker setup. Much improved, but still hoping to eek out that last bit of goodness.

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[Mazen]

What are those speakers? If the tweeters are offset they should be on the inside edge and NOT the outside.

Usually what you complain about is a speaker problem. We need precise details of those speakers.

I'll post a link to the speakers tonight. I thought the tweeters on the outside would benefit me due to better time alignment. Thanks, I'll swap them around tonight.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk

 

[Irvrobinson]

What are those speakers? If the tweeters are offset they should be on the inside edge and NOT the outside.

Usually what you complain about is a speaker problem. We need precise details of those speakers.

Interesting observation about offset tweeters. The Audioengine 5+ I use in my desktop system have offset tweeters and AE specifically recommends placing the speakers so that the tweeters are offset to the outside. I'm not sure it matters in a near field setup like mine, but interesting nonetheless.

The OP's listening observation sounds like what you hear in dual-mono. Mazen - do you have mono operation set somewhere?

 

[MrBoat]

I'll post a link to the speakers tonight. I thought the tweeters on the outside would benefit me due to better time alignment. Thanks, I'll swap them around tonight.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk

The suggestion earlier about getting closer to the speakers, if they are worthy at all, is a good one, even if just temporarily for critical listening.

It's nice to be able to sit just so, according to our aesthetic desires of how we 'see' ourselves interacting with our décor, but very few rooms accommodate this without a lot of EQ trickery and other compensatory measures. Which of itself, can take away from the otherwise natural music effects.

I have rather large speakers and I often set myself up within an 8' triangle near field style. These days, most people can't sit still long enough for that.

All of this talk of imaging and localization issues, and yet, actually listening 'to' your speakers is a good thing if they are great to start with. It's this HT prerequisite of so-called "realism" that tends to muddy the waters to where our imaginations are no longer allowed to resolve any of what we are hearing.

Form following function is modern audio's worst enemy.

 

[PENG]

Interesting observation about offset tweeters. The Audioengine 5+ I use in my desktop system have offset tweeters and AE specifically recommends placing the speakers so that the tweeters are offset to the outside. I'm not sure it matters in a near field setup like mine, but interesting nonetheless.

The OP's listening observation sounds like what you hear in dual-mono. Mazen - do you have mono operation set somewhere?

My Energy 22 reference were also tweeter offset to the inside, so I have to agree with TLSGuy this time.

 

[PENG]

Hi, I'm having trouble getting a wider, more separated, realistic stereo image. Meaning I get a very strong, centered audio image, but the entire band seems to be dead center along with the vocalist for the most part.
I'm using 3 & 4 piece bands, female vocalists, & hi res flac files. I read that just moving your speaker even 1 inch makes a noticble difference re imaging. So, I moved mine at least 20 times and experimented with toe in at each move. I was able to drastically improve the general imaging quality as I never did that when I finished the theater & brought in the main L/C/R speakers. Could this just be the best the speakers can do?
I was really hoping for a genuine wow factor with this being a new home theater. Which is crazy to hear myself say because just 5 yrs ago I would have killed for this room, now I keep raising the bar.
Here's some details if it helps:
MTM style speakers, rear port, w/ offset tweeters on the outside edge
Speakers are 13 ft apart & 5 ft and 10 ft from side walls, 36 in from front wall. 13 ft to listening position.
Room is 25w x 22d x 8h. Carpeted basement, currently building acoustic trap wall posters.
Denon 4300x avr with Audyssey set to flat, sub off in stereo mode, all other features off like eq, etc.

https://imgur.com/GziAFHV

As TLS Guy said, try swapping the left/right so the tweeters are on the inside. Also, try moving the speakers inward, aim for 11 ft between them, or 12 ft but sit further back 2 ft, i.e., move the couch back two feet. After that you should only need to fine tune the toe in angle. As mentioned, the recording plays the most important part, but it does look to me the speakers are two far part.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Right from the AE website:

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/poweredspeakers/a5-plus-powered-speakers/

I'm assuming they know best about their speakers...

 

[shadyJ]

The diffraction from the far baffle edge of the tweeter offset won't amount to much. I doubt that would make a big difference in the response or in imaging. Does it have an effect? Yes. Is that effect audibly significant? Not likely. I took measurements from a very similar design not long ago, the response difference from the offset is not major.

 

[j_garcia]

If they aren't responding to width adjustments, then I'd start doing some toe in.

 

[ski2xblack]

Hold on just a minute. You're comparing your monopole speakers with dipoles? Please clarify this point.

Hi, you're right - it's a 7.2.4 config. Movies sound great. In fact, I never would have even questioned my setup if I hadn't gone shopping for the Denon avr & been inadverdantly exposed to some Magnepan 1.7 speakers. They imaged so well I got literal goose bumps. Being on a blue collar factory salary means I gotta make do for a while as it takes some time to save up that much cash

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk

So no, your speakers won't interact with your room the same way the Maggies do. It's a bit of a parlor trick, in that they involve the local acoustics to a greater degree than your speakers do, and the extra spatial effect gets applied to everything. [IMO, it's not ideal for more "wet" mixes (e.g. those with more ambiance, either captured in the recording or added in production). For more "dry" recordings they can do pretty amazing things.] If that is what you're trying to replicate, your current speakers simply won't do it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Right from the AE website:

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/poweredspeakers/a5-plus-powered-speakers/

I'm assuming they know best about their speakers...

It looks as if the wave guide on the tweeters is asymmetrical. So that would make them an exception.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'll post a link to the speakers tonight. I thought the tweeters on the outside would benefit me due to better time alignment. Thanks, I'll swap them around tonight.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk

I'm curious about the speakers, as an FR peak especially associated with a cone break up mode, absolutely destroys imaging and it does not take much.

 

[Mazen]

Hi, here's a link to the speakers. They're Modula MTM's. Most of the pertinent info is on the first page.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?11321-Modula-MTM-1-Design-and-Construction-Details

* ShadyJ thanks for the web page link - I'll check those audio files out. As to moving things around I can't move the seats as they're positioned inline with the side surrounds and also centered below the atmos ceiling speakers. I can however pull the L/R's right on out into the room for some testing.
* IrvRobinson - I'll double check and see if anything is configured for mono. Note, the L/R's do run off an external stereo receiver.
* TLS Guy - regarding breakup modes - all these are aluminum drivers and have a very steep xover to tamp down distortion outside the passband. These have a cauer-elliptic crossover emulating 8th order L-R for first octave.
* Much thanks to everyone for their ideas!