Active Loudspeakers - next generation........

[TheWarrior]

I share a lot of your sentiments, but my EE friend had formerly worked for Jensen. He taught me a lot about speaker design and he had friends that had reverse engineered a high end amplifier. I wanted to build it, but they claimed it was tweaked for performance and insisted they build it. This is when it seemed like dark arts to me and I backed out.

Whether an M2 or something less, was wondering how it sounded better. Am have become a tech laggard in my audio investments and just trying to find the solid opportunities to leverage. This thread started on active design potential, but appeared to me that other factors might be worth considering. I already have active crossovers, and room eq., so know what they bring. I was wondering how much waveguides contribute to the sound and whether it might be worthwhile to experiment with the SEOS one?

Ww

Speakers with active crossovers - digital crossover before amp - benefit from not being limited on woofer crossover frequencies due to passive crossover parts costs/integration (at less than 500hz) , as well as effortless Baffle Step Compensation.

The JBL 'image control' waveguide and compression tweeter serves it's minimal purpose of limiting the directivity increase when handing off to the high frequency transducer as well as minimizing propagation loss if high frequencies over distance, but it also manages to evenly disperse sound over an incredibly broad area. Combining these features allowed this speaker to have a nearly flat frequency response 20hz-20khz (if the typical spec is +/- 3dB, this does it in 0.5-1 dB)

This results in a loudspeaker that sounds the same (above bass frequencies) in home theaters, or equally well in a 500 seat theater - yes, they tested this. You may already know everything above, but I cite it as a short explanation of the benefits of this design.

I sampled the M2 at Harman, where they had been casually placed on the long wall(maybe 30'+) of a large room with no set up whatsoever. Couldn't tell you what music I heard but it was effortless and balanced when sitting in front. "Wow, speakers that sound great when you sit in front of them, who knew!?!" I said.

So I jumped up and started circling the room with Floyd Toole following me every step of the way. We identified the areas of the room that suffered from room modes, made comments on possible treatment, but I do not recall ever finding a place where the speakers timbre shifted or some higher frequencies became inaudible. That's what I find so impressive about these speakers. Their sound is as neutral as you can get, and they will call attention to any deficiency in the recording, but at most frequencies, they sound the same, everywhere! I guess another way to say it is, forget the 'wall of sound' aspiration, this is bathing in sound!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yep and one major reason why actives don't sell as much as passives is simple--electrical mains hum. You can change receivers/amps to get rid of mains hum if they are poorly designed/filtered with your passive system. With active speakers you are basically screwed.

I agree.

Hum noise is a major problem when it comes to all amps (internal and external) for a lot of people.

But at least with external amps, you could manage the problem easier.

I had this issue when I had dual Rythmik subs.

2 subs humming in stereo.

In addition to hum noise, I think most audiophiles prefer "separates" over "integrated" anyway - separate amps, separate preamp, etc.

External amps (Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston, McIntosh, etc.) are just too popular with audiophiles to give up.

Who are the people buying these $20K speakers? Audiophiles who also buy high-end amps.

As if audiophiles are willing to trade in their Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston, McIntosh, etc. for little class-D amps stuck inside speakers? Kidding me?

If audiophiles aren't willing to accept pro amps (Crown, QSC, Yamaha), why would they accept these little class-D amps inside speakers?

 

[KEW]

I agree.

Hum noise is a major problem when it comes to all amps (internal and external) for a lot of people.

But at least with external amps, you could manage the problem easier.

I had this issue when I had dual Rythmik subs.

2 subs humming in stereo.

In addition to hum noise, I think most audiophiles prefer "separates" over "integrated" anyway - separate amps, separate preamp, etc.

External amps (Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston, McIntosh, etc.) are just too popular with audiophiles to give up.

Who are the people buying these $20K speakers? Audiophiles who also buy high-end amps.

As if audiophiles are willing to trade in their Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston, McIntosh, etc. for little class-D amps stuck inside speakers? Kidding me?

If audiophiles aren't willing to accept pro amps (Crown, QSC, Yamaha), why would they accept these little class-D amps inside speakers?

I think we need a reality check here!
I won't say it's impossible, but I have had several active speakers and absolutely none of them had a problem with hum. I suspect the root problem you had with the Rhymiks was a Ground loop hum issue, not hum inherent to the unit itself!
Most active speaker sales are from the pro audio market, primarily designed for recording studios. Monitors with hum would not last long in that market.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think we need a reality check here!
I won't say it's impossible, but I have had several active speakers and absolutely none of them had a problem with hum. I suspect the root problem you had with the Rhymiks was a Ground loop hum issue, not hum inherent to the unit itself!
Most active speaker sales are from the pro audio market, primarily designed for recording studios. Monitors with hum would not last long in that market.

Yes, I meant ground loop hum noise, which is 100% dependent on the user's system.

I always assumed "hum noise" as ground loop.

 

[ichigo]

I think we need a reality check here!
I won't say it's impossible, but I have had several active speakers and absolutely none of them had a problem with hum. I suspect the root problem you had with the Rhymiks was a Ground loop hum issue, not hum inherent to the unit itself!
Most active speaker sales are from the pro audio market, primarily designed for recording studios. Monitors with hum would not last long in that market.

It indicates there's possibly a ground loop or voltage ripple somewhere in the electrical wiring in the house, but different hardware depending on how the amps are wired will be more or less likely to pick up or filter that noise. For example, every HK and Marantz amp I have tried will have ground loop noise blaring out of the speakers, but none of the Yamaha or Denon or Onkyos do. Similarly I'm unable to use JL Audio subs because all of them hum in my house, but I've had Velodyne and Dynaudio subs that were all dead quiet.

I've used plenty of active monitors and while most of them don't hum, some of them do. It's much easier to change an amp/monitor than trying to troubleshoot a wiring issue since most electricians don't know even know how to troubleshoot a ground loop even if you were willing to re-wire your entire house. Personally I've asked multiple electricians to look at the issue and they can't figure out what's causing the hum in some of the equipment.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Disadvantages of powered towers/subs (internal amps):

1. Possible ground loop hum are easier to fix if the amp is external because it's easier to change the amp than the whole big tower or sub.

2. High quality external amps are probably more reliable than amps inside towers and subs. For example, some companies offer 20YR warranties for external amps, but only 3YR for internal speaker/subwoofer amps.

3. You can't buy big cool shiny external amps since the towers/subs have small class-D amps inside them.

4. Some audiophiles believe that having amps inside components are not good (like amps inside AVR ).

5. Some "Active" speaker/subwoofer systems cost a lot more than if you just bought passive speakers/subswoofers + external amps.

6. If the amps malfunction, it's a lot easier to replace the amp if they were external. When internal amps malfunction, you usually have to buy the amps from the same speaker/subwoofer companies. If the companies are bankrupted, you are usually screwed unless you have some good loudspeaker skills.



Advantages of powered towers/subs (internal amps):

1. You don't have to buy external amps.

2. You don't have to worry if your speakers have enough power (matching amp to speaker).

Are there any advantages of powered towers/subs that might outweigh the disadvantages?