Is new AVR worth it?

[pinky & the brain]

The preamp output of the entry level Yamaha AVRs seemed a little too low for comfort. By setting the Crown to 0.775V, it allows the amp to achieve it's rated out when the input is only 0.775V instead of the 1.4V default setting. That could result in lower distortions. Otherwise the Yamaha may have to work almost twice as hard, resulting in higher distortion at higher output levels.

Thank you. That was very helpful. I've changed the setting.

 

[PENG]

Sorry, I should have said almost everyone. I would love to get both right now, but can't. Still trying to decide. Leaning towards another amp for the 4 ohm speakers and maybe 1 sub for now.

If you already have the XLS1502, why would you need another amp? Sorry if you have already addressed that..

 

[snakeeyes]

You are driving a lot of speakers so ideally the Monolith 7 amp could be worth researching in the other threads if you want to keep the lsi9s but if you added a Rythmik ported 15 (or similar HSU or PSA) first and moved the cr6 over where the lsi9s are and drop the heights completely you might be better off as far as movies as well as music goes. There’s a few ways to skin this cat... All roads lead to getting the most out of the front 3 and side speakers and getting a sub that can make all the speakers shine by using bass management.
Also wish I could comment on the RSL 34E as those interest me too but I’m sure William will give us his thoughts soon.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Also wish I could comment on the RSL 34E as those interest me too but I’m sure William will give us his thoughts soon.

Roger that @snakeeyes. I’m actually still waiting for my speaker cable, and avr to complete my installation. However!!! I’m such a nerd/kid, and can’t wait, that I made a pair of enclosures and installed them as the mains in my bedroom 5.1 system. Please know that I’m fully aware of the compromises in my enclosures, and they are certainly crippling the performance potential, and I will accept no negative critiques on them. I did at least use a few t-shirts for damping, lmao. But I just couldn’t wait... so...

Anyways, I can say that (for now) the treble is slightly laid back compared to the Yamaha BS normally used in here.(did not run mcacc either, but tried a couple of the mcacc presets I’ve used on other speakers) But these things image like crazy. Tried them in 2.1, and the soundstage was sooo deep and wide with stuff moving all over. Wife was like wtf, it’s 10:30, time for bed so I will spend some more time later with them. So far, love them.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry, I should have said almost everyone. I would love to get both right now, but can't. Still trying to decide. Leaning towards another amp for the 4 ohm speakers and maybe 1 sub for now.

LOL just needling you. A single 10" sub in 6500 cuft wouldn't work for me, I use 4 very large subs in a similar volume. I'd start with a couple large subs for more impact.

Also rather than connect by bluetooth usually wifi is a better alternative...

 

[TechHDS]

Current system: Yamaha rx-v863 avr, crown xls1502 amp, Fronts Paradigm Prestige 95f, center paradigm prestige 45c, surrounds: polk lsi9 booshelf, rear surrounds: Bose 191, front presence: Boston acoustic CR6 bookshelf, Subwoofer: Klipsch KSW10 Sub Woofer.

Is it worth upgrading to Yamaha RX-A2070 receiver or anthem MCA325 amplifier? We like to listen to our movies and music on the loud side and feel submersed in the surround sound. Other audio/video equipment Kenwood CD player, Sony Blu Ray, Mac mini, Roku & Tivo. We could really use more HDMI inputs... And like to connect via bluetooth.

Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

Yes, upgrading to the A2070, miles ahead of your current unit. You could sell off that Crown amp put the funds towards a better sub

 

[snakeeyes]

Roger that @snakeeyes. I’m actually still waiting for my speaker cable, and avr to complete my installation. However!!! I’m such a nerd/kid, and can’t wait, that I made a pair of enclosures and installed them as the mains in my bedroom 5.1 system. Please know that I’m fully aware of the compromises in my enclosures, and they are certainly crippling the performance potential, and I will accept no negative critiques on them. I did at least use a few t-shirts for damping, lmao. But I just couldn’t wait... so...

Anyways, I can say that (for now) the treble is slightly laid back compared to the Yamaha BS normally used in here.(did not run mcacc either, but tried a couple of the mcacc presets I’ve used on other speakers) But these things image like crazy. Tried them in 2.1, and the soundstage was sooo deep and wide with stuff moving all over. Wife was like wtf, it’s 10:30, time for bed so I will spend some more time later with them. So far, love them.

I was looking at trying out 4 of them for 5.1.4 but that may push me to buying an amp too. Ok maybe I just am curious about separate amps but if I dump my 400 disc dvd changer an amp will fit...

 

[pinky & the brain]

I just ordered a new sub, Rythmic FV15HP. I really am concerned it might break stuff (like China, windows, art, etc). Not really even sure where we're going to put it, but we'll figure that out. Really hope it's all that.....

I did return the Crown 1802. Wasn't sure if it was what we really needed or a waste of money. At least temporarily we removed the Polk lsi9's and moved the cr6's to the surrounds.

Still looking at upgrading the receiver. Has anyone had both the Denon 6300 or 4400 and the Yamaha 2070? Preference? The 6300 is on sale right now for $100 less than both the 4400 and the 2070.

If we upgrade the receiver and leave the 4ohm speakers off and replace them with 8ohm speakers, will an amp still be necessary with one of the above receivers? If so, 2 ch, 3 ch, 5 ch? What is enough?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I just ordered a new sub, Rythmic FV15HP. I really am concerned it might break stuff (like China, windows, art, etc). Not really even sure where we're going to put it, but we'll figure that out. Really hope it's all that.....

Solid choice. FV15HP is great all around sub

 

[snakeeyes]

Congrats on the sub! This will add a lot to the movie theater experience!
Can’t help on Denon but I’m sure others will chime in...

 

[Winkleswizard]

I just ordered a new sub, Rythmic FV15HP. I really am concerned it might break stuff (like China, windows, art, etc). Not really even sure where we're going to put it, but we'll figure that out. Really hope it's all that.....

I did return the Crown 1802. Wasn't sure if it was what we really needed or a waste of money. At least temporarily we removed the Polk lsi9's and moved the cr6's to the surrounds.

Still looking at upgrading the receiver. Has anyone had both the Denon 6300 or 4400 and the Yamaha 2070? Preference? The 6300 is on sale right now for $100 less than both the 4400 and the 2070.

If we upgrade the receiver and leave the 4ohm speakers off and replace them with 8ohm speakers, will an amp still be necessary with one of the above receivers? If so, 2 ch, 3 ch, 5 ch? What is enough?

If the crown did not seem to help, am pretty sure the problem will not be solved by a more expensive AVR and a shotgun approach can get to be a very expensive approach to fixing a problem...

Please describe what you think is lacking about how your system sounds. Avoid talking about how (ie., 4 ohms vs. 8 ohms). You have a large space which usually is advantage. Is the bass lacking or surround not immersive? Is is not loud enough?

Ww

 

[pinky & the brain]

If the crown did not seem to help, am pretty sure the problem will not be solved by a more expensive AVR and a shotgun approach can get to be a very expensive approach to fixing a problem...

Ww

It's not that the Crown did or didn't help. It didn't really seem to make a difference but we aren't really cranking up the volume yet either. Just wasn't sure the crown was the right amp to get. DH thinks we're better off having at least a 3 channel amp. And since I'm the one that decided to upgrade our fronts, center and the sub, I'm not going to tell him that we don't need to also protect the center channel with more power. Because I really don't know if the 2 channel was adequate or not.

Upgrading the AVR is not just about extra power, it's also (primarily) about new sound formats I don't have, and the convenience of wifi and bluetooth built in. Also, at some point we want to put in ceiling Atmos speakers and want to have that as an option we don't currently have. Right now, it isn't absolutely necessary and it might even be better to wait until next year when 2.2 hdmi capable receivers come out. But if we don't upgrade, then Im back to looking at amps just to ensure we have adequate clean power to run 9 channels.

As far as what's lacking... I'll get back to you after we get the new sub .

I'm basically just trying to get the best system we can afford and future proof as much as possible, because this is probably the last time we will spend any significant funds on the home theater. Priority after this is planning for retirement in 12 years.

 

[lovinthehd]

It's not that the Crown did or didn't help. It didn't really seem to make a difference but we aren't really cranking up the volume yet either. Just wasn't sure the crown was the right amp to get. DH thinks we're better off having at least a 3 channel amp. And since I'm the one that decided to upgrade our fronts, center and the sub, I'm not going to tell him that we don't need to also protect the center channel with more power. Because I really don't know if the 2 channel was adequate or not.

Upgrading the AVR is not just about extra power, it's also (primarily) about new sound formats I don't have, and the convenience of wifi and bluetooth built in. Also, at some point we want to put in ceiling Atmos speakers and want to have that as an option we don't currently have. Right now, it isn't absolutely necessary and it might even be better to wait until next year when 2.2 hdmi capable receivers come out. But if we don't upgrade, then Im back to looking at amps just to ensure we have adequate clean power to run 9 channels.

As far as what's lacking... I'll get back to you after we get the new sub .

I'm basically just trying to get the best system we can afford and future proof as much as possible, because this is probably the last time we will spend any significant funds on the home theater. Priority after this is planning for retirement in 12 years.

Who or what is DH? You might be confusing HDCP and HDMI https://www.audioholics.com/hdtv-formats/hdmi-2.0-hdcp-2.2

Look forward to more analysis before buying, but agree with WW that the Crown was fine, but you just aren't where power makes a difference (yet).

Good luck!

 

[Winkleswizard]

It's not that the Crown did or didn't help. It didn't really seem to make a difference but we aren't really cranking up the volume yet either. Just wasn't sure the crown was the right amp to get. DH thinks we're better off having at least a 3 channel amp. And since I'm the one that decided to upgrade our fronts, center and the sub, I'm not going to tell him that we don't need to also protect the center channel with more power. Because I really don't know if the 2 channel was adequate or not.

Upgrading the AVR is not just about extra power, it's also (primarily) about new sound formats I don't have, and the convenience of wifi and bluetooth built in. Also, at some point we want to put in ceiling Atmos speakers and want to have that as an option we don't currently have. Right now, it isn't absolutely necessary and it might even be better to wait until next year when 2.2 hdmi capable receivers come out. But if we don't upgrade, then Im back to looking at amps just to ensure we have adequate clean power to run 9 channels.

As far as what's lacking... I'll get back to you after we get the new sub .

I'm basically just trying to get the best system we can afford and future proof as much as possible, because this is probably the last time we will spend any significant funds on the home theater. Priority after this is planning for retirement in 12 years.

I recently added a newer Yamaha to my system. It replaced an older Onkyo and Denons before that. My room is not near as big as yours, but can tell you have not heard much sound quality improvement. One of the Denon’s was top of the line at the time and all it did different was end up in the shop and never did sound right after that.

More channels is just more wires and Dolby Atmos is not a panacea. Unless you need 4K video, am skeptical you will get a significant improvement in sound with new AVR. I noticed your AVR does not have USB or networking. If you have a streaming audio service or plan to have, this is one major feature that is worth upgrading to get, but it is more for convenience.

I would watch how your blu-ray is being decoded by your AVR. I had a newer samsung that did not work as well as an older Panasonic. This led to non optimal surround decoding and affected the sound. Also, in my experience, auto room correction tends to overcompensate and reduce subwoofer levels too low. If your low bass special effects seem wimpy, try raising the subwoofer levels 3-6 db.

If you do need more amplification, you need at least 3 channels as you should do the mains and the center together. The Paradigms should have been just fine in terms of output. Which Klipsch did you replace them with?

Hope this helps!

Ww

 

[pinky & the brain]

More channels is just more wires and Dolby Atmos is not a panacea. Unless you need 4K video, am skeptical you will get a significant improvement in sound with new AVR. I noticed your AVR does not have USB or networking. If you have a streaming audio service or plan to have, this is one major feature that is worth upgrading to get, but it is more for convenience.

I would watch how your blu-ray is being decoded by your AVR. I had a newer samsung that did not work as well as an older Panasonic. This led to non optimal surround decoding and affected the sound.

If you do need more amplification, you need at least 3 channels as you should do the mains and the center together. The Paradigms should have been just fine in terms of output. Which Klipsch did you replace them with?

Hope this helps!

Ww

Thank you.

We do quite a bit of streaming radio and video. That is one of the reasons I want to upgrade receiver, but also because it's a hassle changing hdmi cables whenever I want to switch from blue ray to roku. (along with previously mentioned reasons). I don't really anticipate sound improving, maybe different if we change brands.

The Klipsch was our old subwoofer that we replaced with Rhythmic FV15hP sub. (That we love!). Husband agrees with you that we should power the front LCR together. We did not replace the Paradigms with Klipsch. We had the Polk LSI9 Bookshelves as front speakers. We replaced them with the Paradigms and deligated them to the surrounds. Wound up removing them because Yamaha doesn't support 4ohm speakers anywhere except fronts.

 

[pinky & the brain]

Who or what is DH? You might be confusing HDCP and HDMI https://www.audioholics.com/hdtv-formats/hdmi-2.0-hdcp-2.2

Look forward to more analysis before buying, but agree with WW that the Crown was fine, but you just aren't where power makes a difference (yet).

Good luck!

Yes. I was mixing them up and DH stands for Dear Husband

 

[Winkleswizard]

Might want to describe your HDMI issue to ensure whether a new AVR would address...

Btw, it is not as simple, but that new Samsung blu-ray that did not work as well with my Yamaha AVR, is being used with my old Denon to do music streaming. So, while I previously mentioned that might be a worthwhile AVR upgrade, many newer blu-ray can stream music and video too. If you want higher quality, make sure new AVR or blu-ray decodes FLAC (or if you use Apple, ALAC).

Finally, if you want to integrate an external amplifier cleanly, make sure it has a trigger input. When you use the trigger cable to connect the amp to the AVR, the amp will turn on and off with the AVR.

Enjoy!

Ww

 

[snakeeyes]

The sub will serve you well. As far as receivers, you might want to demo a Yamaha 2060/2070 or 3060/3070 in your house and see if that works better for you than the 3 ch amp option. You mentioned you may not upgrade the receiver again so I would attack this head on if you want it sorted out now vs later. Good luck!

 

[Winkleswizard]

Sorry, missed in your original post that you are low on HDMI inputs. However, this could be inexpensively resolved with an HDMI switch. Notably, if you are only shy one input, it would get you by in the interim. Bluetooth streaming can also be added fairly inexpensively.

If you really want to get a new AVR sooner, would watch over the next few months. With the latest models starting to ship, you can often find last year’s model at a significant discount. It is pretty common to get up to 50% off the older model.

For your size room, still would lean towards a separate amp across the front speakers. To get comparable amplification, you need a high end AVR and it has more to fail and often is not the best value.

Ww

 

[PENG]

It's not that the Crown did or didn't help. It didn't really seem to make a difference but we aren't really cranking up the volume yet either. Just wasn't sure the crown was the right amp to get. DH thinks we're better off having at least a 3 channel amp. And since I'm the one that decided to upgrade our fronts, center and the sub, I'm not going to tell him that we don't need to also protect the center channel with more power. Because I really don't know if the 2 channel was adequate or not.

Upgrading the AVR is not just about extra power, it's also (primarily) about new sound formats I don't have, and the convenience of wifi and bluetooth built in. Also, at some point we want to put in ceiling Atmos speakers and want to have that as an option we don't currently have. Right now, it isn't absolutely necessary and it might even be better to wait until next year when 2.2 hdmi capable receivers come out. But if we don't upgrade, then Im back to looking at amps just to ensure we have adequate clean power to run 9 channels.

As far as what's lacking... I'll get back to you after we get the new sub .

I'm basically just trying to get the best system we can afford and future proof as much as possible, because this is probably the last time we will spend any significant funds on the home theater. Priority after this is planning for retirement in 12 years.

Sounds like you are a good candidate for the outgoing (you mentioned budget is not unlimited) Denon top model, the AVR-X7200WA.

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X7200WA-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B00XIG6LYC

At the current price of $1800, nothing can touch it. It has the latest sound format, Audyssey Platinum for room equalization, top AK4490 DAC (digital to analog converter) that is the same one used in the newest $4,500 Marantz AV8805 processor and the $4,000 Denon AVR-X8500H). Like the comparable RX-A3060, it has been bench tested by S&V to produce the following power output into 4-ohm loads.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a3060-av-receiver-review-test-bench

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x7200w-av-receiver-test-bench

Two channel driven continuously into 4-ohm loads:
234.7 watts at 0.1% distortion
265.5 watts at 1.0% distortion

Five channels driven into 8-ohm loads:
122.3 watts at 0.1% distortion
138 watts at 1.0% distortion

Compared to the Yamaha RX-A3060, Denon has better looking distortion vs output graph, much lower cross talk, and marginally better signal-to-noise ratio. The Denon also has much better 5 and 7 channel driven outputs.

The AVR-X7200WA apparently has a "real" pre-amp mode because according to the online manual (scroll down to the end).

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX7200WA/NA/EN/BIAJSYjhudqdih.php

"This stops operation of the internal power amplifier of this unit, reducing interference in the pre amplifier created by the power amplifier."

I don't believe it will improve sound quality, but it might improve it's reliability and longevity when used with a multi-channel external amplifier. I would still add at least one $10-$20 Infinity fan to help cooling it for even better longevity. This applies to just about any recent models of any brand.

With this flag ship AVR, you can definitely use a 300 WPC external amplifier to drive the big 95f only, or use the AVR in pre-amp mode by adding a Monolith 7 channel amp.

The bottom line is, your HT room, the big 95f, and the LSI9 deserves much better than the anemic RX-V863.