Help with amp selection polk LSIM speakers

[Verdinut]

So i am going from 140 WPC on the marantz to 250W with parasound or if i use that monolith its 200WPC getting the speakers more power is the biggest deal fo rme for clarity etc. Will the parasound be more clear and accurate?

Also one other thing i wanted to ask is what do you think about the D-Sonic amps are they any good?

I am not familiar with the D-Sonic line.

 

[davehall83]

Not at all. You won't be able to tell the difference between the two, should you attempt to do the comparison. I am telling you from experience.
Save your money and improve your system with room acoustics and perhaps more or better subwoofers for an overall better performance.

You ran down this rabbit hole before in the past i take it lol? It’s a big rabbit hole for sure and i see ati makes monolith so that gives me about 60 wpc more power will i notice more clarity from the speaker with this guy? That’s all i’m really trying to do is give them the power they need not necessarily more volume

 

[PENG]

You ran down this rabbit hole before in the past i take it lol? It’s a big rabbit hole for sure and i see ati makes monolith so that gives me about 60 wpc more power will i notice more clarity from the speaker with this guy? That’s all i’m really trying to do is give them the power they need not necessarily more volume

It won't likely make an audible difference but I think you may be a perfectly candidate for an AT543NC.

https://www.amazon.com/Amplifier-Technologies-AT543NC-Watts-Channel/dp/B076KN6JHL

I bet @RichB will agree with me. We both own a Halo amp.

 

[davehall83]

It won't likely make an audible difference but I think you may be a perfectly candidate for an AT543NC.

https://www.amazon.com/Amplifier-Technologies-AT543NC-Watts-Channel/dp/B076KN6JHL

I bet @RichB will agree with me. We both own a Halo amp.

Yeah this guy is same price as halo amp on sound vision website but i get 500 wpc it’s class d tho what’s better lol? since your halo owner you may be able to tell me which is better a31 or this one

 

[PENG]

Yeah this guy is same price as halo amp on sound vision website but i get 500 wpc it’s class d tho what’s better lol? since your halo owner you may be able to tell me which is better a31 or this one

My A21 sounds the same to me as my othesr amps and AVRs. RichB has the A51 and the ATI so he should have a better story to tell you. If you are so concerned about more power for your LSIMs, the ATI is a better deal, based on specs and measurements. I am not the right guy for subjective comments.

The S&V reviewer apparently kept the 200W version of that AT class D amps after the review, to replace his Halo A51

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So you think Dynamic EQ is the best huh?. All AVR units, have that in some format or another.

EQ is the salient difference among processors. Key is to find the one that makes your system sounds awesome.

Otherwise, in Direct Modes, processors are just bypassing the processing so they don't sound all that different when volume level matched (when all conditions equal).

 

[davehall83]

It won't likely make an audible difference but I think you may be a perfectly candidate for an AT543NC.

https://www.amazon.com/Amplifier-Technologies-AT543NC-Watts-Channel/dp/B076KN6JHL

I bet @RichB will agree with me. We both own a Halo amp.

i just realized something that ATI amp for the AT543NC the input sensitivity is 2.5 volt and i don’t think the marantz sr8012 can output from the rca that much voltage i think it’s actually 1.2 or something like that so i’m guessing that amp won’t work?

 

[TechHDS]

EQ is the salient difference among processors. Key is to find the one that makes your system sounds awesome.

Otherwise, in Direct Modes, processors are just bypassing the processing so they don't sound all that different when volume level matched (when all conditions equal).

Finding a EQ, that makes your system sound awesome?. Man!, I'm stuck down here in this Rabbit Hole 'ANWL' , lol, so deep not even the "Lil Red" . Thx for da Two bags of Joe, lolo, Queen Bee buzzs around wit canefield Bob again!...lol.with her Big Pompous head, it's hugh I tell ya.. Got be by now, all dem bones that she been bobbing up and down on. . Oh yeah I went there #4.. Anyways, getting back to either an EQ or processor never liked ' direct' mode. I mean lets get real here if the guy who was learning engineering in a recording studio would have done his job right in the first place most of the gear out on the market now wouldn't be needed.. But then the rabbit-hole wouldn't be as much fun huh.
Plus One wouldn't need to go to a live concert to find out what their favorite band really sounds like.

 

[PENG]

i just realized something that ATI amp for the AT543NC the input sensitivity is 2.5 volt and i don’t think the marantz sr8012 can output from the rca that much voltage i think it’s actually 1.2 or something like that so i’m guessing that amp won’t work?

That's a valid concern, but don't worry about it. D&M always rate their AVR/AVP pre-outs 1.2 V and Yamaha RX-As 1.0 V. That rating is obviously specified under a certain condition, probably the voltage required for the unit to reach it's rated output for an 8 ohm load, it does not mean that it is the maximum output voltage.

The last time Gene measured a mid range Marantz SR6004, a $5,000 integrated PM11S3 and a lower midrange Denon AVR-X3300W, he had the following results.

Marantz SR6004
"With 0dBFS in, the SR6004 was able to output a whopping 7Vrms unclipped (<.1%THD +N). "

Marantz PM11S3
"It was able to output 3.5Vrms unclipped which should be enough to drive virtually any modern amplifier into clipping. "

Denon AVR-X3300W
"One thing I really love about Denon receivers is they NEVER skimp on their preamp out circuits. Like past models, the AVR-X3300W had an ample amount of drive. I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power."

Below are more samples of his measurements

Denon AVR-X5200W
"The AVR-X5200W has plenty of grunt via the preamp outputs to use in conjunction with virtually any separate amplifier should you desire more power. I measured unclipped output of 4.5Vrms from every channel. We like to see at least 2Vrms and the Denon met this with over 6db of margin to spare."

Yamaha RX-A1010
"I did some quick spot-checking on the RX-A1010 pre-amplifier gain structure to ensure it could be properly drive a wide assortment of power amplifier. My personal criteria for amplifier gain structure is that it should be able to hit full power when driven with 2Vrms. The RX-A1010 was able to deliver 2.8Vrms unclipped out of the analog multi channel outputs."

The AT543NC only needs about 1.6 V to output 200 W into 8 ohms and 300 W into 4 ohms. The 2.5 V is only needed for the rated output of 500 W into 8 ohms and 900 W into 4 ohms. At that point you would risk damaging your LSIM 707.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My A21 sounds the same to me as my other amps and AVRs.

You mean “similar”, not “same”.

Wouldn’t want golden ears to be riled.

 

[davehall83]

That's a valid concern, but don't worry about it. D&M always rate their AVR/AVP pre-outs 1.2 V and Yamaha RX-As 1.0 V. That rating is obviously specified under a certain condition, probably the voltage required for the unit to reach it's rated output for an 8 ohm load, it does not mean that it is the maximum output voltage.

The last time Gene measured a mid range Marantz SR6004, a $5,000 integrated PM11S3 and a lower midrange Denon AVR-X3300W, he had the following results.

Marantz SR6004
"With 0dBFS in, the SR6004 was able to output a whopping 7Vrms unclipped (<.1%THD +N). "

Marantz PM11S3
"It was able to output 3.5Vrms unclipped which should be enough to drive virtually any modern amplifier into clipping. "

Denon AVR-X3300W
"One thing I really love about Denon receivers is they NEVER skimp on their preamp out circuits. Like past models, the AVR-X3300W had an ample amount of drive. I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power."

Below are more samples of his measurements

Denon AVR-X5200W
"The AVR-X5200W has plenty of grunt via the preamp outputs to use in conjunction with virtually any separate amplifier should you desire more power. I measured unclipped output of 4.5Vrms from every channel. We like to see at least 2Vrms and the Denon met this with over 6db of margin to spare."

Yamaha RX-A1010
"I did some quick spot-checking on the RX-A1010 pre-amplifier gain structure to ensure it could be properly drive a wide assortment of power amplifier. My personal criteria for amplifier gain structure is that it should be able to hit full power when driven with 2Vrms. The RX-A1010 was able to deliver 2.8Vrms unclipped out of the analog multi channel outputs."

The AT543NC only needs about 1.6 V to output 200 W into 8 ohms and 300 W into 4 ohms. The 2.5 V is only needed for the rated output of 500 W into 8 ohms and 900 W into 4 ohms. At that point you would risk damaging your LSIM 707.

Very good information and i definitely appreciate the explanation. So you mentioned the 500W would damage the LSIM 707's which i agree if it achieved that level, would that mean i should set the gain on that channel to 50% to make sure it doesn't or is the amp smart enough to shut down before that happens?

I am actually now looking at going with the ATI 543NC for the front 3 and a 528NC for the 8 other channels i have. I have a return policy still on my marantz SR8012 i think i should trade it for maybe the marantz AV8802A. I also see the AV8805 but its too much money and the AV7704 which i am not sure would be up to the SR8012 specs for processing or is it? The SR8012 was just released not too long ago and has all the features i want i just want to move those features to a pre-amp processor. Any help thoughts would be appreciated. The XLR's on this thing would make a difference at least what one of the ATI dealers i am talking to is stating but he doesn't have much marantz knowledge

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

One wouldn't need to go to a live concert to find out what their favorite band really sounds like.

Actually I prefer the sound of my Dynamic larger-than-life sound to any live band.

Live bands sound too ordinary to me.

It’s like looking at a beautiful woman after she has on all the larger-than-life makeup vs no makeup.

Or larger-than-life Photoshop picture of a supermodel vs plain camera.

DEQ is Perfect Fantasy vs reality.

 

[TechHDS]

Actually I prefer the sound of my Dynamic larger-than-life sound to any live band.

Live bands sound too ordinary to me.

It’s like looking at a beautiful woman after she has on all the larger-than-life makeup vs no makeup.

Or larger-than-life Photoshop picture of a supermodel vs plain camera.

DEQ is Perfect Fantasy vs reality.

kind of like this one with makeup, Lil Fairy huh, sprinkle little tabasco hot sauce on dat lil fairy could be mighty tasty I tell ya., Take away the flowers, mascara

and the hair dye, and you find out 'it's' Skeletor. ADTG, met that lil flower at a Hooker escort convention.. yeah ADGT She is an 'It's,' see the 1st. Definition of a working girl after flower.. EQ, DEQ, tone control, bass management, room treatments. It's all there only because the mixing engineer and producer screwed up in the recording studio!.. ADTG, I don't have much to add to your post it's early in the morning and I've only had one cup of coffee and one camel smoke.

 

[TechHDS]

No way in hells I would buy Niles or especially those crappy Audio Source amps over the Crown amps!

If you actually need an amp or just DESIRE an amp like most audiophiles, then for $1300 delivered, I got just the amp for you - the Monolith 7x200 Watts amp B-stock with full 5YR warranty from ATI.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=18682

If you are not familiar with ATI, they have $8K amps as well as other amps. ATI also makes amps for the likes of Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio. They also own Theta Digital, which makes $12K amps and $20K pre-pros.

ATI also makes amps for Outlaw Audio and Monolith.

I consider the Monolith 200x7 Amp B-stock for $1300 and the Denon X3000 series for $600 (on sale) products of the year, every year.

Of course, you already have that great Marantz flagship 8000 series AVR, so don't get any ideas about "upgrading" it because you won't get any better sound than your Marantz regardless of price!

Dam!, You are Yoda!. ( ADTG, I'm agreeing with your post 110% umm..ok Totally! was thinking that just forgot to add). just now!. at 9:08 pm CST, at my local bar association. , The rest of the post on this thread makes for good reading. Mostly.

 

[TechHDS]

So i found a guy wanting to sell his on ebay a parasound A31 for $2399 shipped. Would you go for that vs the full price $3250? The amp is in very good condition based on the pictures the only thing i found that could be bad about this is parasound is very specific that their warranty only applies to the original owner...

Why are you fixieated with Parasound amps? Good amps been around a long time John Curl has his fingerprints all over them. You are wanting to maybe buy used amp, over two G's Used!. Don't know if any warranty is left on it or even transferable. Better choice to be had, the recommendation for add on amps for what your wanting to use the amp for has been posted up by members on this thread that's hard to argue with. Your best Value for the coin are the Crown amps, New warranty, used good condition even better value. Money left over for Room treatments.. (pun intended ) Maybe buy some cable lifters, or shiny Bananas that look like bumblebees for all your speaker outputs and inputs.

PS. okay just saw No warranty, I personally wouldn't touch that deal with a ten-foot pole.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

EQ, DEQ, tone control, bass management, room treatments. It's all there only because the mixing engineer and producer screwed up in the recording studio!..

Well, I wouldn’t say that.

We all have different preferences.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

PS. okay just saw No warranty, I personally wouldn't touch that

Yeah, $2400 for an amp with no warranty? An amp that will sound like other amps that cost much less brand new? No thanks.

 

[PENG]

Very good information and i definitely appreciate the explanation. So you mentioned the 500W would damage the LSIM 707's which i agree if it achieved that level, would that mean i should set the gain on that channel to 50% to make sure it doesn't or is the amp smart enough to shut down before that happens?

It's up to you. You should always have a good idea of what my amp is outputting, without relying on such electronic hard limit. You can easily use an online calculator to figure out what spl you can get for 200W, 300W, 500W. Then after running Audyssey, take note of the level settings and you will know how much your amp will be outputting at reference level. If you are not sure how to interpret any of the results correctly, post them, and we shall answer.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

I am actually now looking at going with the ATI 543NC for the front 3 and a 528NC for the 8 other channels i have. I have a return policy still on my marantz SR8012 i think i should trade it for maybe the marantz AV8802A. I also see the AV8805 but its too much money and the AV7704 which i am not sure would be up to the SR8012 specs for processing or is it? The SR8012 was just released not too long ago and has all the features i want i just want to move those features to a pre-amp processor. Any help thoughts would be appreciated. The XLR's on this thing would make a difference at least what one of the ATI dealers i am talking to is stating but he doesn't have much marantz knowledge

Why do you think you need XLR? With the AV8802A, you lose the Audyssey editor app compatibility, and to me that's potentially a more important feature than a higher grade DAC that the AV8802A, AV8805 and AVR-X8500H offer. I suggest you use the spl calculator to figure things out first, post the results, and we'll help you determine whether you really need a 528NC for the other 8 channels.

Theoretically, any of the 11 channels could reach reference level in a movie, but in practice, I have not watched one that I thought came close to having even 5 channels at reference level simultaneously. If anyone know of any such movie titles, please let me know and I will order them (at least a couple) right away.

 

[RichB]

i just realized something that ATI amp for the AT543NC the input sensitivity is 2.5 volt and i don’t think the marantz sr8012 can output from the rca that much voltage i think it’s actually 1.2 or something like that so i’m guessing that amp won’t work?

When level matching the XLR inputs of the AT4002 and AT522NC, the AT522NC provides 3dB additional gain.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

It won't likely make an audible difference but I think you may be a perfectly candidate for an AT543NC.

https://www.amazon.com/Amplifier-Technologies-AT543NC-Watts-Channel/dp/B076KN6JHL

I bet @RichB will agree with me. We both own a Halo amp.

Let's begin with the Polks Specs:

Polk specs: Nominal 8 Ohms

That is not as revealing as the SoundAndVision test reports:

Frequency response

• tower 34 Hz to 20 kHz ±4.6 dB
• center 46 Hz to 20 kHz ±3.6 dB
• surround 65 Hz to 20 kHz ±5.3 dB
• subwoofer 34 to 450 Hz ±3 dB

Sensitivity (SPL at 1 meter/1 watt)

• tower 86.5 dB
• center 87.7 dB
• surround 87.8 dB

Impedance (minimum/nominal)

• tower 2.8/5 ohms
• center 3.5/5 ohms
• surround 4.0/5 ohms

Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/test-report-polk-audio-lsim-speaker-system-page-3#h23gT460K9du46iu.99

Minimum of 2.8 Ohms is quite a bit different than nominal 8 Ohms. When manufactures provide only "Nominal Impedance", I assume this is not the impedance
Your going to need an amp that is stable below 4 Ohms to drive these speakers.

It may also be worthwhile reading about the NCore amps by designer Bruno Putzey:

S&V: Conventional wisdom says a great amplifier has no sonic character of its own and, beyond boosting the signal level, is transparent in the audio chain. But does the nature of high-quality Class D amplification—perhaps through the absence of distortions found in other circuit topologies—produce a particular sonic signature or specific attributes you could describe?
BP: Well, if the amplifier is truly great that’s absolutely right. Sonic signatures are what you get when you approach the same ideal from different angles. There are a few distortion mechanisms conspicuously missing in Class D, mostly those related to the input stage of a Class A(B) solid-state amplifier and nonlinear capacitances. Those are also missing in valve [tube] amplifiers so it’s quite common for people to notice that a Class D amplifier is somehow reminiscent of valve amplification in terms of “sweetness” for want of a better word.
I’ve heard several reports of valve aficionados ditching their glassware and switching to Ncore. All I can conclude from that is that those people clearly weren’t actively seeking the distortion of valves as many believe, but instead had a legitimate beef with certain sonic aspects common to most solid-state designs. That’s one thing I have to explain again and again to my fellow doubters: when audiophiles report a particular listening experience, that experience is real. Trust that. Just don’t trust the explanation they proffer.

Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bruno-putzeys-head-class-d-page-2#TmyRf7bdJCtITvJS.99

I am currently comparing the AT4002 and AT522NC at home. Driving the Revel M20 bookshelf speakers, the AT4002 makes strings sound exquisite, while the AT522NC is more forward with great detail in the high-end. I have not had a chance to audition them on the Salon2's. The difference I hear may have something to do with the M20's so it may not be universal. To put it into context, I sometimes forget which amp I am listening to when starting up the system. For heat and weight, the AT52xNC amps cannot be beat. Bass reproduction is also excellent.

- Rich