Right to Repair Bills!

[herbu]

Even so, you benefit greatly from the competition offered by other repair shops!

Kurt, I agree. My point is that I'm not convinced companies are obligated to disclose all their proprietary information. In fact, it seems the process of patents is designed to protect that information from reverse-engineering and cloning.

I've seen the hours and dollars required to develop these designs and information. It doesn't seem right for one company to invest in that development, then be forced to hand it over to the public. It's like me working, then being forced to support those who didn't.

I was at the Deere shop a couple weeks ago to get some parts. I waited in line behind 3 other people who were getting parts. The clerk offered advice and instruction to each of us on our particular repair. I just find it hard to believe that Deere has nefarious intent.

 

[Irvrobinson]

As a communist (is this spelled with a capital letter? my spelling checker seems to allow both) I'm fond of an idea of a big powerful government that controls all aspects of society and human life except thinking, privacy, art, information, sex, tastes, preferences etc. You can read the BS Grover Norquist unloads, but you can't practice it, you can read about devising explosives, but you can't devise them other than under the control of the government.

So, you got me completely ( COMPLETELY) wrong about where my resistance comes from. I'm all for imposing everything that benefits most of us regardless of whether everyone understands exactly why it is being imposed (if they wish to understand they are free to learn). It has to do with negative and positive freedom, you can find it in Isaiah Berlin's writing, although he promotes negative type which is the American type, but what he describes as positive is what I'm interested in. (Here positive and negative are not quality markers i.e. negative (American) is far better in Berlin's opinion - put simply negative is just free from (rules, laws, etiquete, compassion, solidarity...) positive is free to (organize, uprise, rebel, strike change the world for better)

What I oppose is private sector using state to force people into something by law which in the end benefits private sector and no one else.

I did learn several of these abbreviations, but not all!

While I was teaching at the University I had a lot of problems explaining this exact same thought - recycling being bad. It is widely accepted as being positive. I usually say; whenever you see something widely accepted question it. I don't assume the outcome, perhaps you'll simply reassert it after questioning, but do question it.

I suspected this was the case, but it is nice of you to reveal yourself so that your perspectives can be taken in the light they are intended.

It is interesting that you have an interest in a hobby, home theater and audio systems, that almost certainly would not exist without a profit motive. Nor would the majority of the content most people use them to reproduce. Doesn't this seem disingenuous? Or is it just naivety?

The difference between us, killdozzer (an odd user name for a communist, many of whom claim to be communists as a byproduct of being humanists), is that you believe government has the right to appropriate the entire benefit of a person's labor for redistribution to others by force. I, on the other hand, think communism is tantamount to enslavement of anyone capable of producing anything of value.

Capitalism is as imperfect as the humans who make up capitalistic economies, so the rule of law and greater-good statutes are required to keep it civil. Keeping capitalism civil is a challenge, but one I'd rather than living in a society where everyone thinks they have a right to what I produce.

 

[KEW]

Kurt, I agree. My point is that I'm not convinced companies are obligated to disclose all their proprietary information. In fact, it seems the process of patents is designed to protect that information from reverse-engineering and cloning.

I've seen the hours and dollars required to develop these designs and information. It doesn't seem right for one company to invest in that development, then be forced to hand it over to the public. It's like me working, then being forced to support those who didn't.

I was at the Deere shop a couple weeks ago to get some parts. I waited in line behind 3 other people who were getting parts. The clerk offered advice and instruction to each of us on our particular repair. I just find it hard to believe that Deere has nefarious intent.

I would agree with you in principle, but that is patent law's domain.

From my perspective, maintaining control of any and all post warranty repairs is giving a corporation too much power over my wallet. I could live with it if there were restrictions on parts and labor rates to make them fall in line with the open market, but in general, whenever a company has a captive market, "what the market will bear" becomes a bad situation.

I forget the details, but I am sure you heard of the guy who bought all manufacturers of an inexpensive, but critical drug and increased the price something like ten-fold because he had a monopoly. To me, having a monopoly on repairs is equivalent.

I believe much of the problem here (as TLSGuy has laid out) is people buy farm equipment with the expectation that the guy/shop they have been depending on to keep it running can continue to support them. It is a bitter pill to swallow that you are at the mercy of one company to determine cost and how long you are out of work. I assume your Deere equipment is about lawn care where missing a week or two is no crisis, but do you think you would feel the same if your tractor breaks down at the start of harvest and you are watching crops rot!

Maybe you can find a loaner tractor, but it won't be cheap. In many areas everyone is growing the same crops on the same schedule. The "In Deere we trust" mantra falls a bit empty!

Perhaps if a company were required to inform buyers and label their equipment up-front that they would be captive to repairs by that company. I think much of the problem is we have an expectation when we buy from an established company (such as Deere) that we are getting a product reflective of past experiences with that company and they snuck this "got cha by the short hairs" situation in on their loyal customers. I think it is a marketing mistake for their farm equipment division. It might fly with "Suburban farmers", but for the people who actually need their equipment to earn a living, it seems reckless and downright cruel.

No I don't think Deere has outright nefarious intent, but nor are they worried about nefarious situations as a by-product of their policies. Financially, it is better for them to have a backlog of repairs than to over-staff so they can provide timely responses.

 

[slipperybidness]

Let me supply a personal experience, just a couple weeks ago, where a company took the preferred approach.

Lab instrument starts acting up (Metrohm is the manufacturer). This instrument has liquids plumbed to it (acids, organics, water), it has pumps, sample changers, electronics, relay boxes, etc. It is a complicated instrument!

This is an intermittent problem (the absolute most difficult problem to diagnose and repair). About once every 2 weeks, the water-rinse pump misses it's signal to shut off, and over-flows the instrument with water. Then as time progresses, it starts doing this once per day.

After very advanced troubleshooting on my part, I call the vendor and speak to the vendor expert. Now, this particular instrument is for Electrochemical Analytical Techniques, and this is a very limited niche market. Not many experts out there, not many vendors out there, a fairly captive market as a customer.

I get advice and guidance from the vendor expert. I also get 2 quotes. Replacing the main PCB is $10k, replacing the entire instrument is $25k. Or, I can pull the board and send it to them to eval and attempt repair for unknown costs.

Well, I have to strip this entire instrument apart to get that main PCB out. When I finally do, I find some corroded USB sockets! The odd thing, the problematic part of the instrument has absolutely nothing related to the USB sockets. The problem area is on a parallel port signal, tied into a relay box.

At this point, I send the PCB to our internal electronics repair shop. I have nothing to lose, and a minimum $10k to gain. We repaired this system in-house and have not had a single failure since!

This is what I expect out of the BEST vendors! Give me advice and help to keep my equipment running in-house, for the least $. Guaranteed, for my next purchase, I will remember this type of attitude and will go back to this vendor.

If a vendor can't/won't work with me like this, then they automatically go to my "B List".

 

[its phillip]

Not related to a right to repair or anything, just a $26,000+ servo that had to be replaced because there is no procedure to repair/replace the torn boot (not my hand in the photos):

 

[lovinthehd]

Not related to a right to repair or anything, just a $26,000+ servo that had to be replaced because there is no procedure to repair/replace the torn boot (not my hand in the photos):

What, some Duck duct tape won't work?

 

[highfigh]

I have worked as a service tech in the boating industry and before that, I sold audio & installed car electronics, so I had a god background in 12VDC devices, troubleshooting, etc. I did some component level repairs, but didn't need to, because we had a service department for that. Moving to servicing boats was a real eye-opener. The first day of technical training was all about 12VDC electricity and some of the devices that are used in a boat's electrical system WRT fuel injection. The Bosch-style relay is almost ubiquitous in cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles and other used- very simple, but somehow mysterious because it uses electricity. Some of the others at the session had been working on engines and boats for decades, but were completely dumbfounded by a device that has five metal tabs for the connections and a diagram on the side, to show which tabs are used for the latching coil, which are normally closed or normally connected. Couldn't even determine which did what, using a multi-meter.

Once I was in that business for a while, I started to see boats coming in that had problems which remained for quite a while, simply because the people who had looked at the boats couldn't find the source of the trouble. Might have been a bad wire terminal, loose wire, a short circuit, bad sensor, etc. These boats had been taken to dealers that had been in business for decades and still, they were unable to find a solution.

Fast forward a few years and I became involved in a ski boat user's forum and the first comment I felt compelled to reply to concerned the annoying warning buzzer that made noise as soon as the key was turned to ON or when the oil pressure fell, the engine overheated, or some other problem existed. The comment that the boat owner should cut the wire on a new boat is the reason I replied and that step could have caused a fire or death and at the very least, it would have voided the warranty which, because it's a warning device, would have been completly justified, IMO.

I replied in another thread about engine performance, after someone jumped in to mention that his engine had been hard to start when it was warmed up to normal temperature. I asked if the exhaust smelled of gasoline and if he had soot on the transom. He replied that he did, so I told him to check the coolant temperature sensor- he came back the next day, to say that the dealer hadn't been able to find the solution of the problem IN FIVE YEARS! I think that's pathetic. A dealer was charging him to service the boat and was unable to look in the service manual to check for stored codes, test the resistance, look at the exhaust ports or smell the exhaust.

Getting to the point of the end user servicing their own, the boat dealers/service shops who can't bring themselves to learn about what they're charging customers to do, people who don't have a tiny particle of knowledge about an engine or electronics are willing to jump head first into these problems, usually by replacing sensors that may have nothing to do with the problem, but that's what they know how to do- replace, rather than diagnose. They wouldn't think of doing this to their car because good car service shops are easier to find, even though the car may cost half of the price of the boat.

I think more should be done to force dealers to prove they can perform, or lose any factory authorization to service those products. If they want to charge for their "services", they need to justify their existence. I also think more independent service shops should be authorized by manufacturers when the number of dealer/servicers is limited and sparsely-distributed throughout a country. If someone can prove they know how, they should gain approval. These end users seem to forget that mixing electronics and flammable liquids can be deadly.

 

[slipperybidness]

Another win for the little guy! FTC says those "warranty void if removed stickers" are a violation!

@TLS Guy

https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/11/ftc-warranty-warning/

 

[highfigh]

OK,

Another win for the little guy! FTC says those "warranty void if removed stickers" are a violation!

@TLS Guy

https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/11/ftc-warranty-warning/

OK, so a third party can now legally repair just about anything- what if they damage it during the warranty period and it's sent to the manufacturer or their 'certified' repair center? Is it not within the manufacturer's rights to tell the end user to pound sand because they took it to someone who damaged it?

 

[panteragstk]

OK,



OK, so a third party can now legally repair just about anything- what if they damage it during the warranty period and it's sent to the manufacturer or their 'certified' repair center? Is it not within the manufacturer's rights to tell the end user to pound sand because they took it to someone who damaged it?

While I agree that this is a grey area that will make things difficult, why would someone pay for a repair then try to get warranty work after? Wouldn't it make MUCH more sense to do the reverse?

I could imagine this happening when something happens to a product then the manufacturer says the warranty doesn't cover it. I would then pay for the repair, but I would think if the repair center is "authorized" then the product would still be considered under warranty?

Am I over thinking this?

 

[TLS Guy]

Another win for the little guy! FTC says those "warranty void if removed stickers" are a violation!

@TLS Guy

https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/11/ftc-warranty-warning/

That is a start. Certainly if a problem develops, an experienced user should be able to open the case, and at least have a look around to see if it is something simple like a circuit board connector that fell off in transit. That could certainly save a hassle for customer, vendor and manufacturer. A bodged repair will leave plenty of evidence. They can not now assume the customer who opens the case is a bodger. He may be, but that would be obvious.

 

[highfigh]

That is a start. Certainly if a problem develops, an experienced user should be able to open the case, and at least have a look around to see if it is something simple like a circuit board connector that fell off in transit. That could certainly save a hassle for customer, vendor and manufacturer. A bodged repair will leave plenty of evidence. They can not now assume the customer who opens the case is a bodger. He may be, but that would be obvious.

With the large number of closed stores that once serviced AV equipment and people aging out of the business, it's a much safer bet that it will be rodgered by someone who thinks they know what they're doing than it being repaired properly. Sure, lots of people are learning to repair electronics, but they're still at the kiddy table- many I have conversed with barely know DC theory, never mind AC or digital. To ask people in electronics to understand sound and acoustics is a huge stretch, IMO.

Unless AV stores start hiring people who learned electronics in the military, they're not coming from associate programs, at this point. High schools rarely have shop classes, although a few are scattered around that do. Far from the norm, unfortunately.

 

[highfigh]

While I agree that this is a grey area that will make things difficult, why would someone pay for a repair then try to get warranty work after? Wouldn't it make MUCH more sense to do the reverse?

I could imagine this happening when something happens to a product then the manufacturer says the warranty doesn't cover it. I would then pay for the repair, but I would think if the repair center is "authorized" then the product would still be considered under warranty?

Am I over thinking this?

You want to tell someone in the boonies that they have to pay for shipping to get their equipment to a service center? Convenience often trumps warranty coverage in some peoples' minds and when it goes wrong, they still want it to be covered.

 

[hemiram]

I could see a case being made for maybe keeping info under wraps for a certain time period in some cases, but in general, I think companies should have to share diagnostic info and not be able to force owners of their equipment to go to them for service.

I've run into companies who will void warranties if you do anything to the product. A friend bought a new Uniden police scanner and the audio cut in and out. He contacted Uniden, who, of course, wanted him to send it to TX for service. It was obvious there was a loose connection inside. He decided to let me have a shot at fixing it, and I did, they forgot to solder one of the little springs that contact the speaker, which seems a very poor design choice to me. Months later, the radio bricked itself, not having anything to do with my repairs over 3 months earlier. They denied warranty coverage, and my friend had to pay whatever the flat rate was to get it fixed, and wait and wait for it to come back. He finally decided he was done with Uniden, a choice I had made long ago. Other companies, ones I will do business with in the future, understand that some people can do things like replace diodes, in my case, or resolder bad joints, and would prefer so before sending it in. I contacted another company and told them I had a problem with one of their new radios, solder joint related, and asked if they would void my warranty if I went in and reflowed the joints that had the problem. The guy on the phone asked me, "Do you know what you're doing?". I answered, "I've been messing with stuff for 50+ years, and have assembled many kits, so I think I do!". He said "Go ahead then", and ten minutes later, it was fixed and over a year later, is still fine, long after the warranty expired anyway. My last "disaster" fixing something was a friend had me replace the speaker on his scanner and I somehow messed up the display putting it back together. Ebay saved me a ton of $$ when I found a corpse for $10 and transplanted the display to my friend's scanner. The manufacturer wanted $25 for the display module alone! I sold off parts from that $10 radio for over $50 since then and still have the main chassis sitting in my corpse scanner box. As long as people use soldering irons on stuff that shouldn't be, I will have a source of a little income. I wish I had taken pics of some of the hack jobs people, and in a couple of cases, repair shops have done to things over the years.

 

[slipperybidness]

While I agree that this is a grey area that will make things difficult, why would someone pay for a repair then try to get warranty work after? Wouldn't it make MUCH more sense to do the reverse?

I could imagine this happening when something happens to a product then the manufacturer says the warranty doesn't cover it. I would then pay for the repair, but I would think if the repair center is "authorized" then the product would still be considered under warranty?

Am I over thinking this?

Agreed.

And for some items, it may be much QUICKER to make the repair yourself or get it done 3rd party locally, vs. waiting 6 to 8 weeks for a warranty repair, and perhaps paying $ for shipping charges.

 

[herbu]

Another win for the little guy! FTC says those "warranty void if removed stickers" are a violation!

Thank God!!! I've been locking my pillow up in the safe every day for fear that the law will find out I cut off the tag.

 

[highfigh]

Thank God!!! I've been locking my pillow up in the safe every day for fear that the law will find out I cut off the tag.

OK, now THAT'S abuse! You can't lock a pillow in a safe and expect it to not smother you, at some point.

 

[TechHDS]

AVR"s, Amps, Processes, even Speaker's and a P.C. After a few years with Electronics the real value isn't much. $800.00 buck AVR or a $2.500.00 buck amp isn't really worth much after 3 or 4 years. You would be lucky to sell Any electronic and get 1/3 of what you paid retail. Sure who wouldn't want to get a high end Krell, Pass Lab on the cheap and than get it repaired for a few hundred bucks. The right to repair would be great. The World doesn't work like that case in point, go try a get your rack and pinion unit repaired on your four-year-old vehicle know what you will run into? Your repair shop will tell you, your rack and pinion has a seal leaking and the cost, shop rate $95.00 an hour, 1 hour billed just to troubleshooted minimum, about 5 bucks for the seal and it can be repaired. The Parts house's doesn't sell just the the parts for your rack and pinion unit or your AC compressor. You have to buy a remanufactured or lol, order a New unit from The Manufacturer or Dealer. With a $200.00 buck AVR, set of speaker's now 3 to 6 years old or a 15,000 pair of high end speaker's that are 8 to 12 years old, you would be lucky to get 1/4 of the price you paid unless you found a buyer willing to Pay Your Asking Price. Business just doesn't work like that in the really World.