The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[TechHDS]

Ah, subjective experience and language, particularly with audiophiles, indeed a slippery slope. Would have liked to have been there to experience for myself. Your friend had the same conclusions?

Didn't know Emotiva was offering a receiver. Will check that out. No preouts for the surrounds or just not xlr type? Is it a fully balanced unit? Odd choice to limit the pre outs, tho. While surrounds usually don't get the same levels, altho I can't think of much beyond explosions and such and some multi-ch music that tax the surrounds....the old or new Jumanji? I have the old one on dvd and need to see if the Oppo can make dvd look better....

You use on-wall speakers?

Hey man! We need them dudes! Audiophiles are people too.

 

[RichB]

Ah, subjective experience and language, particularly with audiophiles, indeed a slippery slope. Would have liked to have been there to experience for myself. Your friend had the same conclusions?

Didn't know Emotiva was offering a receiver. Will check that out. No preouts for the surrounds or just not xlr type? Is it a fully balanced unit? Odd choice to limit the pre outs, tho. While surrounds usually don't get the same levels, altho I can't think of much beyond explosions and such and some multi-ch music that tax the surrounds....the old or new Jumanji? I have the old one on dvd and need to see if the Oppo can make dvd look better....

You use on-wall speakers?

Langauge is all we have to communicate an any experience.
My friend had no trouble picking the A820 and felt it had "a bigger wider sound".

The receiver is not released and looks to be pricy.

https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/emotiva’s-top-secret-xmr-1-avr-makes-an-appearance-at-ces-2018.2061/

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/emotiva-shows-new-avr-and-separates

There is some difference in pricing. Emotiva is gettting the feature set right but, as awlays, has trouble meeting advertised delivery dates.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The processors on my radar....the ATI ATP16...

You're willing to pay about $10K for a Pre-pro (doesn't seem to be fully balanced MCH input-to-output) ?

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ati-goes-dirac

I am glad that ATI is going back to doing Pre-pros after an extended hiatus.

But that $10K price tag is pretty high. Reminds me of the $20K Theta Digital Casablanca (which ATI also owns, doesn't seem to be fully balanced MCH input-to-output either).

http://thetadigital.com/casablanca_iv_controller_info.shtml

 

[3db]

For 10K, it better serve me a cold beer while I'm listening to music. If it can't, I will go back to my AVR with comparable specs on the pre-amp section.

 

[TechHDS]

Langauge is all we have to communicate an any experience.
My friend had no trouble picking the A820 and felt it had "a bigger wider sound".

The receiver is not release and looks to be pricy.

https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/emotiva’s-top-secret-xmr-1-avr-makes-an-appearance-at-ces-2018.2061/

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/emotiva-shows-new-avr-and-separates

There is some difference in pricing. Emotiva is gettting the feature set right but, as awlays, has trouble meeting advertised delivery dates.

- Rich[/QUOTE

Rich, Been there done that, Nothing about home audio or video or digital gets my "goat' these days. Back in My hay day when it' was analog and digital combined you where lucky to find a unit with video inputs. Tube TVs didn't have Video or Audio out 'RCA jacks. You had to be creative, pulling the back panel off your TV set splicing into the speaker wires than splicing in L/R, Red/White jacks to plug into Aux or into tape loop, Man those where the days. All of the AVR manufactures and I do mean All of them just don't get it. There worried about how much they are going to have to pay in fees for the formats. So they All and I mean all of the manufactures audio video equipment come up with their Own version of what the consumer wants or needs. So now you end up with a unit that by the time you get accustomed to it or if your lucky enough to get it the last past 1 or 2 year warranty, the media heads Sony, Dolby Laboratories or the movie industry wants a bigger piece of the pie. So now ask yourself, why this hobby is dying out? I joke about Millennials and pick on the ones with just a pair of earbuds and their IPhone or smartphone. Time's have changed my friend the days of HI-FI for the masses has gone stratosphere. When the industry audio video can produce and make available, hologram that I can program from my separate device than and only than will I be impressed. This old timer if I last, will jump this ship of 'hobby' and not look back.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The receiver is not release and looks to be pricy.

https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/emotiva’s-top-secret-xmr-1-avr-makes-an-appearance-at-ces-2018.2061/

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/emotiva-shows-new-avr-and-separates

There is some difference in pricing. Emotiva is gettting the feature set right but, as awlays, has trouble meeting advertised delivery dates.

- Rich

A $5,000 Emotiva AVR?

Lexicon's new RV-9 AVR will probably be $8K since the RV-8 AVR was already $7K.

https://hometheaterreview.com/harman-shows-off-new-lexicon-electronics-at-cedia-2017/

What does this mean for the AVR world?

Blurring the lines between AVR vs Separates?

 

[TechHDS]

@Rich, click the 'expand' for your eyes only..lol. I don't click on many links that most post up, cause most are bait clicks.. no pun intended..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For 10K, it better serve me a cold beer while I'm listening to music. If it can't, I will go back to my AVR with comparable specs on the pre-amp section.

And what do you want from a $20K Theta Digital Casablanca Pre-pro (this is also owned by ATI) ?

To include a Supermodel to serve you cold Champagne and change the volume for you?

 

[RichB]

You're willing to pay about $10K for a Pre-pro?

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ati-goes-dirac

I am glad that ATI is going back to doing Pre-pros after an extended hiatus.

But that $10K price tag is pretty high. Reminds me of the $20K Theta Digital Casablanca (which ATI also owns).

http://thetadigital.com/casablanca_iv_controller_info.shtml

I never pay retail. The take-home price is what matters to me.
In the running, are the new version of the Emotiva XMC-1 and the RMC-1 (which has way too many channels but I like the fully balanced design amd feature set). I'd love a fully balaced 7.1 processor for not to exceed $4k but sadly, that does not exist.

Emotiva's menu system and features set are aligned with my sensibilities.
Exectution matters, so it's wait and see.

My friend just picked up a Marantz 8805 and is happy with it.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

And what do you want from a $20K Theta Digital Casablanca Pre-pro (this is also owned by ATI) ?

To include a Supermodel to serve you cold Champagne and change the volume for you?

Off the top of my head here are my thoughts on processor features:

• Almost no introduced noise and distortion
• No degradation when processing is engaged (not sure what is needed, but something is)
• Selectable sound settings for each format (2.0, multi-channel, Atmos, whatever), each with optional speaker settings
• Multiple frequency and Q PEQs
• Quick temporary level change (can be very important for the center channel)
• The possibility to upgrade to HDMI 2.1 (but mostly for eARC).
• Fully Balanced (just because )
• >100 DB SN
• High power outs (with headroom to spare)
• At least 1 pair of balanced analog inputs (with a no-processing option)
• 3 or more trigger outs
• Startup time (<15 seconds, I'm looking at you Emotiva )
• USB DAC input that support high bitrate LPCM/DSD with multi-channel support
• FL/FR bass management to alternate different sub(s) than the .1 channel
• REQ that obeys the Hippocratic Oath (all processing should, but alas)

What I am not looking for:

• Video processors (especially ISF ones) that introduce noise and can harm both audio and video quality
• Streaming services of any kind (others do this better)
• Zones (much better technology is available)
• Legacy Video - Composite, Component, S-Video, Zones (not needed since there are many better ways to stream)
• Triggers that fry from no apparent reason (I'm looking at our Marantz, although they have reported to have fixed this)
• Amps I don't use and will never use

The only processor I have found that may do all of these things are the new, yet to be released Emotiva.

I am toying with adding subs from my FL/FR and another option would be the then route the .1 to mains (which are crossed). Gene has mentioned that Emotiva is adding this feature. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to go multi-sub in other locations in my room.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Off the top of my head here are my thoughts on processor features:

• Almost no introduced noise and distortion
• No degradation when processing is engaged (not sure what is needed, but something is)
• Selectable sound settings for each format (2.0, multi-channel, Atmos, whatever), each with optional speaker settings
• Multiple frequency and Q PEQs
• Quick temporary level change (can be very important for the center channel)
• The possibility to upgrade to HDMI 2.1 (but mostly for eARC).
• Fully Balanced (just because )
• >100 DB SN
• High power outs (with headroom to spare)
• At least 1 pair of balanced analog inputs (with a no-processing option)
• 3 or more trigger outs
• Startup time (<15 seconds, I'm looking at you Emotiva )
• USB DAC input that support high bitrate LPCM/DSD with multi-channel support
• FL/FR bass management to alternate different sub(s) than the .1 channel
• REQ that obeys the Hippocratic Oath (all processing should, but alas)

What I am not looking for:

• Video processors (especially ISF ones) that introduce noise and can harm both audio and video quality
• Streaming services of any kind (others do this better)
• Zones (much better technology is available)
• Legacy Video - Composite, Component, S-Video, Zones (not needed since there are many better ways to stream)
• Triggers that fry from no apparent reason (I'm looking at our Marantz, although they have reported to have fixed this)
• Amps I don't use and will never use

The only processor I have found that may do all of these things are the new, yet to be released Emotiva.

I am toying with adding subs from my FL/FR and another option would be the then route the .1 to mains (which are crossed). Gene has mentioned that Emotiva is adding this feature. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to go multi-sub in other locations in my room.

- Rich

The McIntosh Pre-pro, Bryston's $10K Pre-pro, and Theta Digital's $20K Pre-pro don't even boast a fully balanced Multi-Channel design (for all channels).

Do you think the Emotiva Pre-pro will be fully balanced Input-to-Output for all channels?

SNR of 100dB (assuming 2.83V into 8 ohms) isn't that difficult to achieve, depending on who's doing the testing.

A $300 Yamaha AVR has a SNR of 110dB (2.83V/8 ohms).

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v377-av-receiver-test-bench

 

[RichB]

The McIntosh Pre-pro, Bryston's $10K Pre-pro, and Theta Digital's $20K Pre-pro don't even boast a fully balanced Multi-Channel design (for all channels).

Do you think the Emotiva Pre-pro will be fully balanced Input-to-Output for all channels?

The current XMC-1 is fully balanced from in to out on the FL/FR channels.
The upcoming Emotiva RMC-1 $5K is fully balanced on all channels with separate DACs per channel.
The upcomming successor to the XMC-1 if fully balanced on the FL/FR/Center channels.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The upcoming Emotiva RMC-1 $5K is fully balanced on all channels with separate DACs per channel.

Wow, impressive. Fully Balanced 16 Channels.

I hope Emotiva offers extended warranty on this baby because that's a lot of digital circuits going on inside that beast!

And hopefully the start-up time is not 60 seconds! We can say things like this because this isn't the Emotiva forum.

Now we'll wait for @PENG comments on how not all fully-balanced designs are created equal.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

LOL, just pokin' a little fun at the kid, after all he's 'out of phase' alright !

no highs, no lows, gotta be Bose .............

Explain to us scientifically how electrons become audiophile.

How's your hearing these days by the way, Oldtimer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think it's safe to say that not all separates are considered equal in this audiophile separates world.

How do people honestly feel about Emotiva's separates (even their 16Ch fully balanced product) vs. Marantz, Rotel, NAD, McIntosh, ATI, Bryston, Lexicon, Theta Digital?

 

[3db]

And what do you want from a $20K Theta Digital Casablanca Pre-pro (this is also owned by ATI) ?

To include a Supermodel to serve you cold Champagne and change the volume for you?

I can't answer that one out in public

 

[Irvrobinson]

and I was referring to better specs (like fT), I don't know how you missed the high transition frequency (which is what they are known for) when you looked up the power capability of the Sankens I posted.

Either way, you should have just let me answer your question as to what spec I was referring to or simply stated that you were only focusing on power capability before basically accusing me of liking shiny objects and not knowing what I'm talking about.

Ease up on the trigger...

Actually, that is exactly what I was accusing you of.

Why is the transition frequency of a transistor important in audio amplifiers?

 

[Mikado463]

They are certainly more linear in their response then Wilson with a far better off axes response then Wilson can provide on axes. Translated..they sound better.

LOL, you are one funny boy !

You must be very in secure by the way you try to impress by name dropping. Better grab your lil blanky and stroke your equipment to make yourself feel better.

again, LOL, I know what you're 'stroking' !!

How is Wilson 'name dropping' ? last I knew they were as much a part of the audio world as PSB, are you jealous because they are made in the States vs. Canada ?

My pedestrian Yamaha decks, circa 1987 which I bought used record and play back flawlessly .

excellent !

 

[3db]

LOL, you are one funny boy !



again, LOL, I know what you're 'stroking' !!

Yep.. My big Yamahas

How is Wilson 'name dropping' ? last I knew they were as much a part of the audio world as PSB, are you jealous because they are made in the States vs. Canada ?
excellent !

jealous of??

 

[<eargiant]

Actually, that is exactly what I was accusing you of.

Why is the transition frequency of a transistor important in audio amplifiers?

First of all, your original comment had nothing to do with the importance of transistor specs in audio amplifiers, you were painting with a broad brush and specifically talking about the supposedly inferior capabilities of old semi-conductors.

Post #34 "output transistor matching in manufacture even in the 80s was lousy, and transistors really had to be hand-matched for highly parallel output stages. Lots of manufacturers did great on their prototypes, less so in production. (Power transistors have come a long way since then.)"

I simply pointed out that not all old transistors have been left in the dust by their newer replacements. Hence, the "it depends" comment. How those capabilities translate to audio is NOT what you've been asking all this time. Please re-read what you've been asking:

Post #69 "That was me. I understand that you think TO-3 packages are cool-looking, but what is your evidence that these 1980-vintage units out-perform currently available power transistors?"

Post #105 "Which specs in particular?
I wasn't referring to package-related performance differences; I was accusing you of liking the older transistors because of their cool-looking metal can package. I'm not convinced you know what you're talking about."

and when specifically asked by ACDTGuy if you were "saying that certain transistors are more durable or have better sound quality?" You said-

Post #109 "No, he's saying they have better electrical specifications and sample-to-sample matching as compared to current generation transistors, and I'm questioning that."

There should be no doubt what you were asking especially after reading post #109.

Now that I've answered your specific question on the "electrical specifications" with documentation and proved my point, you want to move the goal post and ask why a spec is important. You must have missed when I said in post#163 that "Whether or not that's overkill for audio applications is another matter but performance is performance and that's what I was referring to."