Yamaha A-S801 Boost or Roll-Off?

[lovinthehd]

Wow! For a lot of people who would buy an integrated, that represents a sacrilege of the highest degree!

Why? Just curious. Do you think integrated necessarily means analog? To me it just a one box pre-amp/amp without tuner/internet. What happened to separates being the road to sacrilege?

 

[<eargiant]

Why? Just curious. Do you think integrated necessarily means analog? To me it just a one box pre-amp/amp without tuner/internet. What happened to separates being the road to sacrilege?

But in all fairness, integrated amps usually have better power supplies, outputs, heat sinks and overall superior build quality for the equivalent power being advertised/delivered when compared to units that include a tuner, internet and the myriad of bells an whistles that the manufacturer has to pay royalties to include. There’s no free lunch, but I digress

Anyway, I’d still like to know what the function of that TI DSP chip is in this unit. Is it for stereo reproduction? Tone control? The variable loudness contour? All of the above? Is that chip bypassed in direct mode?

PENG, I went back to my headphones tonight and tried all three. Interestingly, today was the first time I compared a 48/16 ACC file via stream. It was Jack White’s - Connected By Love. I listened on the Sennheiser HD-650s. The difference was noticeable to me on this track also. Same goes for his cover of U2’s Love Is Blindness which was streamed in FLAC 44/16.

 

[lovinthehd]

But in all fairness, integrated amps usually have better power supplies, outputs, heat sinks and overall superior build quality for the equivalent power being advertised/delivered when compared to units that include a tuner, internet and the myriad of bells an whistles that the manufacturer has to pay royalties to include. There’s no free lunch, but I digress

Anyway, I’d still like to know what the function of that TI DSP chip is in this unit. Is it for stereo reproduction? Tone control? The variable loudness contour? All of the above? Is that chip bypassed in direct mode?

PENG, went back to my headphones tonight and tried all three. Interestingly, today was the first time I compared a 48/16 ACC file via stream. It was Jack White’s - Connected By Love. I listened on the Sennheiser HD-650s. The difference was noticeable to me on this track also. Same goes for his cover of U2’s Love Is Blindness which was streamed in FLAC 44/16.

Depends what you compare to let alone whether the bells and whistles detract from sq.

With the Dolby and DTS logos I assume it's at least a licensed chip for the codecs. It's the only such chip in the unit? If so then it's the DAC chip I'd assume. Where's @PENG ?

 

[<eargiant]

Depends what you compare to let alone whether the bells and whistles detract from sq.

With the Dolby and DTS logos I assume it's at least a licensed chip for the codecs. It's the only such chip in the unit? If so then it's the DAC chip I'd assume. Where's @PENG ?

That’s the weird thing (at least to me) the DAC chip is an ESS 9010. That’s why I’m wondering what the TI DSP chip is for.

 

[KEW]

Why? Just curious. Do you think integrated necessarily means analog? To me it just a one box pre-amp/amp without tuner/internet. What happened to separates being the road to sacrilege?

No, I don't think integrated means analog, I just bought one of these integrated:
https://www.amazon.com/SMSL-AD18-Bluetooth-Decoding-Amplifier/dp/B01N8Q57FS

However, I think many who buy integrated amps are looking to avoid all processing. That chip is covered with logos associated with a AVR processing which they are trying to avoid.

 

[<eargiant]

However, I think many who buy integrated amps are looking to avoid all processing. That chip is covered with logos associated with a AVR processing which they are trying to avoid.

I agree.

While it may have nothing to do with what I’m hearing I still want to know why it’s there...

 

[lovinthehd]

No, I don't think integrated means analog, I just bought one of these integrated:
https://www.amazon.com/SMSL-AD18-Bluetooth-Decoding-Amplifier/dp/B01N8Q57FS

However, I think many who buy integrated amps are looking to avoid all processing. That chip is covered with logos associated with a AVR processing which they are trying to avoid.

No, I don't think integrated means analog, I just bought one of these integrated:
https://www.amazon.com/SMSL-AD18-Bluetooth-Decoding-Amplifier/dp/B01N8Q57FS

However, I think many who buy integrated amps are looking to avoid all processing. That chip is covered with logos associated with a AVR processing which they are trying to avoid.

Isn't there also 2ch DTS and DD? Or the ability to handle the core? I'm guessing....really don't know why it would be there. Perhaps it's a multi-ch chip because they have zillions of them available and paid for and works just fine for 2ch? Is the ESS strictly a 2ch chip?

Are these photos you took after opening up the 801?

 

[<eargiant]

The pictures of the chips I posted were taken from the internals of my A-S801.

 

[lovinthehd]

The pictures of the chips I posted were taken from the internals of my A-S801.

Those the only two chips I take it?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But in all fairness, integrated amps usually have better power supplies, outputs...

Let’s just focus on the facts here regarding power supplies and power output.

I thought many AVRs have more power output than many integrated.

For example, the Denon X4300, which is often on sale for $799 brand new, can output 240W x 2 Ch into 4 ohms at 1% THD.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x4200w-av-receiver-review-test-bench

Name me an integrated amp even close to that price that can match the output?

 

[<eargiant]

Those the only two chips I take it?

Not sure, I took those pictures in 2016 when I bought the Yamaha and was looking inside at the construction. I was expecting to see the ESS chip but the large TI DSP chip caught my eye and left me scratching my head... I remember thinking, what the heck is that doing in here!!!!

Let’s just focus on the facts here regarding power supplies and power output.

I thought many AVRs have more power output than many integrated.

For example, the Denon X4300, which is often on sale for $799 brand new, can output 240W x 2 Ch into 4 ohms at 1% THD.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x4200w-av-receiver-review-test-bench

Name me an integrated amp even close to that price that can match the output?

I wasn't referring to wattage when I said "power supplies" & "outputs". You're actually supporting my point which was that at the equivalent wattage or (even less for the integrated for that matter) an integrated will "usually have better power supplies, outputs, heat sinks and overall superior build quality". Even Gene directly comments on that point in his video review of the A-S801 which is only rated at 100W @ 8 ohms.

Anyway, hopefully we can keep this thread on track. After all it was your mention of DSP in post #10 (thank you) that reminded me of that DSP chip in the Yamaha. I was always meaning to start a separate thread to ask why that chip is in there but I figured I'd throw it into this discussion because it may be related.

Can anyone shed light as to why that chip is needed in this unit?

 

[PENG]

Anyway, I’d still like to know what the function of that TI DSP chip is in this unit. Is it for stereo reproduction? Tone control? The variable loudness contour? All of the above? Is that chip bypassed in direct mode?

I can't tell from the picture if it is a TI chip, Googled all the numbers and found nothing. It does look like it is a dsp chip, so I guess it must be for the USB DAC if it is the only DSP chip found. In that case it won't be bypassed in pure direct if you are using the USB DAC function.

PENG, I went back to my headphones tonight and tried all three. Interestingly, today was the first time I compared a 48/16 ACC file via stream. It was Jack White’s - Connected By Love. I listened on the Sennheiser HD-650s. The difference was noticeable to me on this track also. Same goes for his cover of U2’s Love Is Blindness which was streamed in FLAC 44/16.

Is the noticeable difference subtle or very noticeable, like anyone can tell? Is it clearer/more transparent, or just different? Sorry if the question's been answered before, but are you sure the loudness button wasn't pressed accidentally?

Last time I used my headphones (HD650 also) to compare without tone control to tone control flat I head no difference. I just tried again, no difference to my ears and I know the preamp output levels are the same tone on or off.

 

[<eargiant]

I can't tell from the picture if it is a TI chip, Googled all the numbers and found nothing. It does look like it is a dsp chip, so I guess it must be for the USB DAC if it is the only DSP chip found. In that case it won't be bypassed in pure direct if you are using the USB DAC function.

It's definitely a TI chip, you can see the big Texas Instruments logo to the left of the words Cinema DSP.

The other chip I pictured, the ESS branded one is supposed to be the 9010 DAC chip that everyone talks about in this unit so I'm wondering what the TI DSP chip is needed for. Do you mean that it's needed to process the USB signal into the ESS DAC chip? Why can't the ESS chip do that on it's own? My only other guess is that the TI chip is for the tone controls and loudness contour. What else could it possibly be doing?

Is the noticeable difference subtle or very noticeable, like anyone can tell? Is it clearer/more transparent, or just different? Sorry if the question's been answered before, but are you sure the loudness button wasn't pressed accidentally?

Last time I used my headphones (HD650 also) to compare without tone control to tone control flat I head no difference. Today my young daughter's home so I can let her do it and tell me if she can hear a difference. I know my preamp has no change in level because I measured it.

On this unit it's easy to be sure that all tone/loudness controls are all off because the knobs are flat (not round) and should all be vertical in the defeat position.

On some tracks the difference is more obvious than others and on some it's difficult to detect. I find it noticeable but I already know what I'm listening for. Even though I have 3 headphone, I'm not a headphone aficionado. To me they're just missing something when compared to a good set of speakers in an open room. If I were at your place doing the test I'd probably ask you to let me try it on your LS50s instead of the HD650s.

As I mentioned before, it's not going to slap you in the face so I suppose some will not hear a difference. You're daughter should be able to hear it but with that said, one of my daughters has the patience and is willing to focus and listen carefully to try and pick out differences. She was the one that could also easily hear the differences between the two MJ Bad versions that were center point to the Quincy Jones lawsuit. My other daughter could care less and hates being the guinea pig for another one of "Dad's listening tests" so she does not concentrate as much on what she's listening to. She just want's to get it over with. So I guess it varies person to person.

 

[PENG]

It's definitely a TI chip, you can see the big Texas Instruments logo to the left of the words Cinema DSP.

I did miss the TI logo for some reason.

Why can't the ESS chip do that on it's own? My only other guess is that the TI chip is for the tone controls and loudness contour. What else could it possibly be doing?

I guessed the USB DAC function based on some block diagrams I have seen for other DACs, but I think you are right about the loudness contour function, that can certainly use a DSP chip.

If I were at your place doing the test I'd probably ask you to let me try it on your LS50s instead of the HD650s.

Actually my Focal's Be drivers are more revealing than the LS50s, but it is much easier with the HD650 because it is not affected by the room. When you get your Umik-1, plot some FR and you will see that moving the mic a few inches will get you FR that may as well be for another speaker.

so she does not concentrate as much on what she's listening to. She just want's to get it over with. So I guess it varies person to person.

Same here, she did it reluctantly and then insisted there was no difference even with treble up 3 dB. Then she did the switching for me and I failed totally, so now I am the crazy one who imagine things. Funny thing is, when I did the switching myself, but still couldn't tell if tone control was on or off, I could score almost 100% of the time if I had the treble up 2 dB, or even 1 dB on one track. The difference is that I control the timing and there know when I switched and was able to focus on the minute difference.

 

[everettT]

Wouldn't be surprising if the dsp handles the sub slopes as well as the loudness contour as @PENG mentions.

 

[PENG]

Wouldn't be surprising if the dsp handles the sub slopes as well as the loudness contour as @PENG mentions.

eargiant mentioned the loudness contour function, I was only agreeing, as it makes sense to me.

 

[lovinthehd]

The loudness contour/bass management for the TI chip makes sense...maybe time to ask Yamaha?

 

[M Code]

It's definitely a TI chip, you can see the big Texas Instruments logo to the left of the words Cinema DSP.

The other chip I pictured, the ESS branded one is supposed to be the 9010 DAC chip that everyone talks about in this unit so I'm wondering what the TI DSP chip is needed for. Do you mean that it's needed to process the USB signal into the ESS DAC chip? Why can't the ESS chip do that on it's own? My only other guess is that the TI chip is for the tone controls and loudness contour. What else could it possibly be doing?

The TI chip is #PCM9211, basically it is a DIR (digital interface receiver), stereo AD, spdif Rx/Tx, signal routing, multiplexer. It is used in certain AVRs, soundbars, HD displays, musical instruments recording & broadcast, pro-music components, multi-media players and high resolution sound cards. Audio DSP decoding is done in the USB chip.

Here is a link to the TI data sheet..
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm9211.pdf

Just my $0.02...

 

[PENG]

The TI chip is #PCM9211, basically it is a DIR (digital interface receiver), stereo AD, spdif Rx/Tx, signal routing, multiplexer. It is used in certain AVRs, soundbars, HD displays, musical instruments recording & broadcast, pro-music components, multi-media players and high resolution sound cards. Audio DSP decoding is done in the USB chip.

Here is a link to the TI data sheet..
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm9211.pdf

Just my $0.02...

That was my initial guess based on online info the AS-801 has a PCM9211 on board. I eliminated the possibility because TI chips typically are clearly labelled, yet the 9211 number is not shown on the chip.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The TI chip is #PCM9211... It is used in certain...soundbars, HD displays...

Man, I would be pissed if I found out that I bought a "separates" Integrated Amp that has a DSP chip used in Soundbars and TVs!

Like most of us have said over and over again, might as well buy an AVR.