Dramatic Story unfolding in Salisbury (Old Sarum) Wiltshire. Good for a movie already

[mtrycrafts]

...
We'll have to keep an eye out for a sudden increase in posts, from guys called Ivan or Boris, about bi-wiring using amps with Sovtek vacuum tubes .

Fell off my chair.
I need seatbelts entering AH.

 

[TLS Guy]

It now seems that Colonel was poisoned at home. The nerve agent may have been plated on his daughter who came from Moscow the day before. The military are now involved. If this is so we know it is Russia.

 

[TLS Guy]

I watched the BBC evening news and there are around 600 troops from Porton Down in Salisbury right now. The public are outraged that this should have happened in such a place.

The YouTube I posted yesterday I have found is very bad quality. I have replaced it with the one below which is excellent. I have leaned a lesson not to link YouTube selections without playing it on my big rig first, not my laptop without Chromecasting it.

This recording will give your subs a work out. It has a lovely choir boy soprano solo and then two singing in close harmony. Angel Voices indeed.

 

[Swerd]

I watched the BBC evening news and there are around 600 troops from Porton Down in Salisbury right now. The public are outraged that this should have happened in such a place.

From Russia with Love.

Is there anymore news about this? I've been scouring the BBC and all the other usual sources, but I got nothing. Perhaps with 600 troops from Porton Down, the security lid on any more news is tight.

 

[TLS Guy]

From Russia with Love.

Is there anymore news about this? I've been scouring the BBC and all the other usual sources, but I got nothing. Perhaps with 600 troops from Porton Down, the security lid on any more news is tight.

Well the news today is a bit chaotic. I can watch UK news you can not via my HTPC and the VPN tunnel.

The six o'clock news said their were 600 troops this has been revised to 180.

The latest ominous development though, is that Porton Down now say this nerve agent has not been seen before. They still say they know what it is. The unusual thing is that nerve agents act within seconds and minutes. The novel thing about this one is that its effect seems delayed. This has not been seen before. The policeman was checked at the hospital only to be admitted much later seriously ill. He seems to be recovering but there are fears he may have permanent mental changes. The daughter of the colonel seems to be showing slight improvement.

The current theory is that the Russian agents slipped the nerve agent into her luggage at Moscow airport.

The Home Secretary Amber Rudd has intimated that they are close to proving that the Russians did this. This is being regarded as an act of war and Rudd hinted that the response will be massive.

The press report that the massive military activity today is unnerving the local populace to some degree. Particular concern is the admission that the effect of this agent is delayed and not seen before, and may have led to initial underestimate if the risk from this hideous attack.

This is a scene not ever seen before anywhere.

This story is far from over. I have to say the US press are doing a very bad job indeed of reporting this highly significant and worrying atrocity. If this were in an American city the news cycle would have been continuous since Sunday.

I hope you play the anthem I posted from Salisbury. It is beautiful and highly appropriate. Play it on your best rig. We have to keep some audio connection on this thread.

 

[highfigh]

This story is far from over. I have to say the US press are doing a very bad job indeed of reporting this highly significant and worrying atrocity. If this were in an American city the news cycle would have been continuous since Sunday.

I hope you play the anthem I posted from Salisbury. It is beautiful and highly appropriate. Play it on your best rig. We have to keep some audio connection on this thread.

The US media is nothing more than a modern version of a carnival barker with a short attention span. It's pathetic.

Have you spent much time in Wiltshire/Sherston/Ditton? Two of my ancestors came from there and their family members are buried near Farnworth Chapel.

 

[TLS Guy]

The US media is nothing more than a modern version of a carnival barker with a short attention span. It's pathetic.

Have you spent much time in Wiltshire/Sherston/Ditton? Two of my ancestors came from there and their family members are buried near Farnworth Chapel.

Yes, I know that area well. It is in the North of Wiltshire and just north of Bath Somerset. It is in the magnificent Cotswolds. I went to School at Downside Abbey which is 12 miles out of Bath towards Wells. Bath is the gateway to the Cotswolds, although in the Mendip hills, just. My uncle was a physician at Chilcompton and my other uncle parish priest at Weston-Super- Mare and later Bath.
My wife's sister and brother in law live in the Welsh Border country just north of Leominster in Herefordshire. I go down the M4 to Swindon and then cut across to the M5 near that area and up to Worcester.

Salisbury in the South, but obviously I know that area fairly well also. That area is on Salisbury plain, which has a long military history. It is also the burial area of the ancient Britons, buried in large mounds they built which are studded all over Salisbury plain.

If you have not spent time in the area of your ancestors, you should. It is beautiful.

I think you can understand why people are particularly outraged at this atrocity being carried out in such a place.

Not much further news to report on the incident today. The Telegraph are a bit of the top and think this could be the first shot in WW III!

Mind you WW I and therefore WW II were triggered by the assassination of a Hapsburg Archduke in the Balkans. So you never know.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, I know that area well. It is in the North of Wiltshire and just north of Bath Somerset. It is in the magnificent Cotswolds. I went to School at Downside Abbey which is 12 miles out of Bath towards Wells. Bath is the gateway to the Cotswolds, although in the Mendip hills, just. My uncle was a physician at Chilcompton and my other uncle parish priest at Weston-Super- Mare and later Bath.
My wife's sister and brother in law live in the Welsh Border country just north of Leominster in Herefordshire. I go down the M4 to Swindon and then cut across to the M5 near that area and up to Worcester.

Salisbury in the South, but obviously I know that area fairly well also. That area is on Salisbury plain, which has a long military history. It is also the burial area of the ancient Britons, buried in large mounds they built which are studded all over Salisbury plain.

If you have not spent time in the area of your ancestors, you should. It is beautiful.

I think you can understand why people are particularly outraged at this atrocity being carried out in such a place.

Not much further news to report on the incident today. The Telegraph are a bit of the top and think this could be the first shot in WW III!

Mind you WW I and therefore WW II were triggered by the assassination of a Hapsburg Archduke in the Balkans. So you never know.

I want to go there as soon as possible but would rather avoid a war zone.

The family tree goes back to about 1533 and there has been speculation (no proof, at this point) that we're descended from Rattlebone.

I think Russia cares nothing for the location of the poisoning, just the slap in the face of it being delivered by his daughter.

 

[TLS Guy]

Now hundreds have to decontaminate clothes and belongings. Traces of nerve agent have been found in the pub and restaurant visited by the Russians. Porton Down fear the agent even in small quantities could be harmful over the long term.

Everybody needs to wake up!

 

[Swerd]

In the US, the best news reports about this I've seen are on CBS News, The Washington Post, and the The New York Times. (The Post & The Times both require logging in, I do subscribe to the Post, but not the Times.) However they all follow what I see on the BBC.

When I was in the Navy, we got some brief training on chemical & biological warfare agents. Nerve gas (as it was called then) was truly frightening. If you were exposed, you had seconds to jab your thigh with a syringe-pen containing epinephrine. We practiced that motion, without really sticking ourselves. Some guy, a bit slow-on-the-uptake, asked why we should stab our thighs without first removing our pants. The answer was "Sure, go ahead and pull down your pants. You'll have just enough time to kiss your ass goodbye."

That was both the bad news & good news about nerve agents back then. They acted dangerously fast, and in a short time, became inactive. It seems like the Russians have developed nerve agents that become activated only after delivery. And apparently, are slowly inactivated. That's their idea of "better living through chemistry".

 

[TLS Guy]

In the US, the best news reports about this I've seen are on CBS News, The Washington Post, and the The New York Times. (The Post & The Times both require logging in, I do subscribe to the Post, but not the Times.) However they all follow what I see on the BBC.

When I was in the Navy, we got some brief training on chemical & biological warfare agents. Nerve gas (as it was called then) was truly frightening. If you were exposed, you had seconds to jab your thigh with a syringe-pen containing epinephrine. We practiced that motion, without really sticking ourselves. Some guy, a bit slow-on-the-uptake, asked why we should stab our thighs without first removing our pants. The answer was "Sure, go ahead and pull down your pants. You'll have just enough time to kiss your ass goodbye."

That was both the bad news & good news about nerve agents back then. They acted dangerously fast, and in a short time, became inactive. It seems like the Russians have developed nerve agents that become activated only after delivery. And apparently, are slowly inactivated. That's their idea of "better living through chemistry".

All nerve agents that have been previously known are fast acting. Port Down are pretty tight lipped about this agent, other then the fact it is novel. It seems pretty certain at this time that this agent acts slowly, probably 24 hours at least from what I can surmise.

I suspect most medics are like me and I suspect you, given your background, are just busting to know more about this agent. It seems to me that this agent either is a pro agent that needs metabolism in the body to active form, or poisons some enzyme system that does not clear something that slowly builds up to cause the problem. The worst case would be if this happens to turn out to be relatively simple compound and easy to produce. If that is the case Porton Down had better be tight lipped until or if an antidote can be produced.

 

[Swerd]

All nerve agents that have been previously known are fast acting. Port Down are pretty tight lipped about this agent, other then the fact it is novel.

I don't doubt for a minute that chemical warfare people in the USA and UK are not familiar with this. And yes, they are very tight lipped about such things. All such agents are outlawed. Of course, "we do not engage in chemical or biological warfare. We, however, are forced to keep active in these fields in order to defend ourselves from those who ignore international agreements." Or so we steadfastly claim.

I suspect most medics are like me and I suspect you, given your background, are just busting to know more about this agent. It seems to me that this agent either is a pro agent that needs metabolism in the body to active form, or poisons some enzyme system that does not clear something that slowly builds up to cause the problem. The worst case would be if this happens to turn out to be relatively simple compound and easy to produce. If that is the case Porton Down had better be tight lipped until or if an antidote can be produced.

I'd guess that its a pro-nerve agent, activated and later inactivated by metabolism. There are plenty of examples of legitimate pharmaceuticals that have been modified in similar ways. And the Russians certainly have experience at this, considering their large effort at developing modified versions of performance enhancing drugs for international athletes.

However, I can't rule out your second suggestion. It may be a bit harder to learn how to develop, but it remains possible.

One thing I can be sure of, if the Russians have produced it, it will be easy and cheap to mass produce.

However, this whole episode makes me wonder why the Russians would ever reveal such a capability. They tend to hide their serious weapons and capabilities for sometime in the future when it might be really needed. (We do the same.) Perhaps, this slow-acting nerve agent is something that had been intended for use as a war weapon, but failed in trials. It could be used successfully, on a small scale, by spies and assassins.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't doubt for a minute that chemical warfare people in the USA and UK are not familiar with this. And yes, they are very tight lipped about such things. All such agents are outlawed. Of course, "we do not engage in chemical or biological warfare. We, however, are forced to keep active in these fields in order to defend ourselves from those who ignore international agreements." Or so we steadfastly claim.
I'd guess that its a pro-nerve agent, activated and later inactivated by metabolism. There are plenty of examples of legitimate pharmaceuticals that have been modified in similar ways. And the Russians certainly have experience at this, considering their large effort at developing modified versions of performance enhancing drugs for international athletes.

However, I can't rule out your second suggestion. It may be a bit harder to learn how to develop, but it remains possible.

One thing I can be sure of, if the Russians have produced it, it will be easy and cheap to mass produce.

However, this whole episode makes me wonder why the Russians would ever reveal such a capability. They tend to hide their serious weapons and capabilities for sometime in the future when it might be really needed. (We do the same.) Perhaps, this slow-acting nerve agent is something that had been intended for use as a war weapon, but failed in trials. It could be used successfully, on a small scale, by spies and assassins.

We both seem to see this the same way. Obviously there is a curiosity factor for medical men. However this whole story has a very ominous menacing ring to it.

 

[highfigh]

We both seem to see this the same way. Obviously there is a curiosity factor for medical men. However this whole story has a very ominous menacing ring to it.

One problem is that, for every unacceptable method of killing or disabling people, it's not terribly difficult to find someone who's willing to administer it. The Gattling Gun was developed 'to be so horrible that nobody would think of using it' and the Atomic bomb was thought of in similar terms, until the rest of the World found out that Germany was developing it and it became a race to be the first to harness it.

I don't want to sound like a prepper, but we had better find a good way to defend our water supply against this kind of chemical, and worse.

 

[TLS Guy]

One problem is that, for every unacceptable method of killing or disabling people, it's not terribly difficult to find someone who's willing to administer it. The Gattling Gun was developed 'to be so horrible that nobody would think of using it' and the Atomic bomb was thought of in similar terms, until the rest of the World found out that Germany was developing it and it became a race to be the first to harness it.

I don't want to sound like a prepper, but we had better find a good way to defend our water supply against this kind of chemical, and worse.

We don't know what it is yet. No idea if it is water stable or anything about and crucially how it was actually delivered.

Not much new news from the ground is Salisbury. The Prime Minister is rumored to be ready to make a statement placing the blame squarely on Russia. Sanctions as I understand will be implemented. There is fear UK nationals might be targeted in Moscow during the World Cup. There is talk of trying to get a cadre of countries to boycott the World Cup in Moscow.

 

[Swerd]

In the West, we often have great trouble understanding the Russian way of thinking, especially about success or failure. We are baffled by their stubborn refusal to cooperate with others. During WW2, the UK & US sent convoys of much needed weapons and supplies to Russia, at great cost in lives and ships. When these convoys arrived at Russian ports, they refused to provide navigation charts to the foreigners. Only after lengthy and stubborn negotiations, the Russians agreed to provide harbor pilots who could guide the ships to dock and unload. It seems, harbor navigation details were tightly held state secrets. Similarly, maps of any kind were never published in Russia, fearing that invaders would make use of them.

There is a famous Russian proverb about this mentality. (I’m paraphrasing below from a book I’m reading, Red Notice by Bill Browder.)

One day a poor villager happens upon a magic talking fish. It says it will grant him a single wish. Overjoyed, the villager weighs his options: “Maybe a castle? Or even better, a thousand bars of gold? Why not a ship to sail the world?” As the villager is about to make his decision, the fish interrupts to say there is one important caveat: whatever the villager gets, his neighbor will get two of the same. Without skipping a beat, the villager says, “In that case, please poke one of my eyes out.”​

The moral is simple: Russians will gladly – gleefully, even – sacrifice their own success to screw their neighbors. This pessimism infects all their thinking. When exposed to American optimism, they take offense at our confidence, claiming we are both arrogant and naïve about the ways of the world.

Russians probably cannot understand why people in Great Britain and elsewhere in the west are so upset about assassinations by banned toxic nerve agents. They are only doing abroad what they already do to their own people at home.

 

[highfigh]

We don't know what it is yet. No idea if it is water stable or anything about and crucially how it was actually delivered.

Not much new news from the ground is Salisbury. The Prime Minister is rumored to be ready to make a statement placing the blame squarely on Russia. Sanctions as I understand will be implemented. There is fear UK nationals might be targeted in Moscow during the World Cup. There is talk of trying to get a cadre of countries to boycott the World Cup in Moscow.

I didn't mean we need to worry that this agent will be put in the water supply- the fact that residents were told to wash their clothes tells me it's either water soluble or something in the detergent dulutes/neutralizes it. If enough of it is on peoples' clothing and the waste water is collected for purification, what happens when it enters the food chain in low doses?

I think I remember someone being poisoned when they wore the clothing that came from the cleaners- IIRC, something was put on the neck band of some shirts and it entered the person's body- is that some work of fiction that I may have read, or does it sound familiar to you?

 

[Swerd]

I didn't mean we need to worry that this agent will be put in the water supply- the fact that residents were told to wash their clothes tells me it's either water soluble or something in the detergent dulutes/neutralizes it. If enough of it is on peoples' clothing and the waste water is collected for purification, what happens when it enters the food chain in low doses?

Very little has been revealed about what seems to be a new type of nerve agent, so I'm only guessing here. Older existing types of nerve agents act rapidly, and almost as quickly become inactive when exposed to something in the environment. That usually is water, where the nerve agent is chemically modified or broken down by water (hydrolysis).

If what TLS Guy & myself believe is true (in one form or another), this new agent is modified to protect it from immediate hydrolysis. However, once inside the body, it is first activated by hydrolysis (or some other chemical action), and once activated, it quickly gets inactivated by the same mechanism as for older types of nerve agents.

At this point, the recommendation that people wash their clothes and personal objects was made as a general precaution. I doubt if such an agent would last long in the water supply or at lower points in the food chain. But, I'm only guessing, and I'm no expert.

 

[Swerd]

I'm afraid what I'm tried to say may not be easily understood without a degree in chemistry. Believe me, I'm not trying to blow you away with too much info.

A good example of a simple nerve agent is Sarin. It's been around since those Germans invented it in the late 1930s, and was outlawed in 1997. Read the Wikipedia entry on Sarin. Read all you like, but pay attention to the sections on Mechanism of Action and Degradation and Shelf Life.

If you like, have a look at the Wikipedia entry on Chlorosarin. It's a precursor to Sarin during production. I don't really know if chlorosarin is more stable than Sarin, but its an example of how a simple chemical modification can make something with similar but less immediately lethal properties.

 

[GO-NAD!]

...
When I was in the Navy, we got some brief training on chemical & biological warfare agents. Nerve gas (as it was called then) was truly frightening. If you were exposed, you had seconds to jab your thigh with a syringe-pen containing epinephrine. We practiced that motion, without really sticking ourselves. Some guy, a bit slow-on-the-uptake, asked why we should stab our thighs without first removing our pants. The answer was "Sure, go ahead and pull down your pants. You'll have just enough time to kiss your ass goodbye."
...

When I was in the RCN, we did similar training. In basic, we had to use the real injector, although it was filled with saline, of course. During subsequent refresher training, the injectors didn't have syringes in them.
Our "for real" injectors were filled with Atropine - is that the same as epinephrine?

Recruits for all of our military service branches go through them same basic training, so instructors can be from the army, air force or navy. My NBCD instructor during basic had been in the Airborne Regiment, and, after instructing us in the use of the Atropine injector, by injecting into the meaty part of the thigh, said he would then demonstrate "how they do it in the airborne". He then held up an injector - which we subsequently learned had a fake blood capsule inside, but no syringe - and then rammed it into his forehead, followed by a spray of "blood". I'm proud to say, I wasn't one of the recruits who passed out on the floor...