Dramatic Story unfolding in Salisbury (Old Sarum) Wiltshire. Good for a movie already

[highfigh]

He had already announced previously that he was going to kill them!

Makes me wonder why they were in public without some kind of protection.

 

[TLS Guy]

Makes me wonder why they were in public without some kind of protection.

After the fall of the Berlin Wall and even with the rise of the thug Putin, everyone has been is a state of denial about Russia. Mainly because of a fear of going back to the cold war. Well the cold war is rekindled now, make no mistake.

Everyone need to change the way they regard Russia and fast.

 

[highfigh]

After the fall of the Berlin Wall and even with the rise of the thug Putin, everyone has been is a state of denial about Russia. Mainly because of a fear of going back to the cold war. Well the cold war is rekindled now, make no mistake.

Everyone need to change the way they regard Russia and fast.

Denial- a fine way to forget past history.

As kid, the name of the official Soviet news outlet just made me shake my head- Pravda, which means 'Truth' in Russian.

I was alive for the Bay Of Pigs, we had occasional duck and cover drills, we had eight Nike Ajax missile sites (three were converted to Nike Hercules) around the city, a good-sized radar/control facility not far away and one at a training barracks a few miles to the West, which is now used for officer training. They still have a tank and on 911, it was no longer on a raised area of the grounds, it was staffed, running and the cannon was aimed outward from the drive to the street, with large concrete blocks to prevent anyone driving in. I was 4 when Bay Of Pigs occurred and I don't remember seeing it on TV, but I remember my parents being worried. Kennedy's assassination and the talk of Soviet involvement came next and it just made sense to be wary of anything the USSR had to say. Now, it's everyone for himself, alliances are formed with adversaries and the assumption that by having nukes, nobody will use them is getting hard to hold onto. If North Korea and Iran end up with them, I don't think we'll be around for very long. I never understood why India and Pakistan felt they needed to be nuclear and I wasn't happy when they got theirs.

Putin appeared to play nice when W was in office and since '09, Putin has just peed wherever he wanted to and dared someone to stop him.

Anyone who likes the idea of centralized government had better open their eyes. Well, unless they would be well-placed and in that case, they'll be fully aware of and in favor of what can happen.

It would be interesting to see the number of people who aren't aware that Putin was the head of the KGB.

 

[Swerd]

Although TLS Guy is an old British-style Tory, and I'm an old US-style Democrat, we share the same views on Russia. Russia is a threat to all western nations, and some nations in the east as well.

Russia, under a wide variety of different governments, has always had the same foreign policy goals – invade & dominate others before they invade & dominate you. This has certainly been true whether under Putin (a former career KGB officer during the Soviet Union days), Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, etc. in the Soviet Union, or the various Tzars, Nicholas, Alexander et al. of the Imperial Russia days. Their major weapons are murder, espionage, blackmail, extortion, and false propaganda. These are more effective during peace time than during war.

The best peace time weapons the USA and others have are the frequent and loud repetition of the truth by a free press, plus maintaining an aggressive military presence. Believe it or not, the Russians are not only sensitive to outside criticism, they are also extremely paranoid. These tactics worked against the Soviet Union during the very long Cold War. Unfortunately it requires an expensive, full-time commitment.

The present US president's wishes to retreat from a strong world-wide diplomatic & military presence is an open invitation to Russia to step in and cheaply accomplish it's goals.

 

[Swerd]

It would be interesting to see the number of people who aren't aware that Putin was the head of the KGB.

He was career KGB before the collapse of the Soviet Union 1990/91, but he was never the head of the KGB. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin#KGB_career

 

[Swerd]

I disagree. I think all that will do is force Putin to use aggression of any kind against the restricting nations to rally his population. With the exceptions of some Russian international business figures and a few progressive academics, Putin will have the support of the majority to push back in any way possible. His ego is too big to fold, and Russia isn't Cuba or North Korea. The economy is too big and self-sufficient, and Russia has considerable natural resources. And Russia has enough money to get many other countries to sell them what they need. Cuba and North Korea don't.

I agree. It takes cleverness and effort to understand an enemy's weak points and exploit them to your advantage.

Every time the US tries economic restrictions or technology barriers on big countries it backfires. For example, China is a supercomputing restricted nation. The US won't allow the sale of certain US-sourced technologies used in supercomputers to China. Like Intel, IBM, or AMD microprocessors. So... what do the Chinese do? They developed their own supercomputing microprocessors and message-passing networks, and now Chinese supercomputers hold the #1 and #2 spots on the Top500 list of the world's known supercomputers.

Good example. Another example from the 1970s was the business of large 6-foot diameter seamless steel oil pipe. The only nations who could produce such pipe were the USA and Japan. Russia wanted to buy some to build oil pipe lines in Siberia. It was far better to sell them some rather than to challenge them to develop their own ability to manufacture such pipe. If I remember, there were many US Congressmen and Senators who opposed the sale of "strategic materials" to our Cold War enemies. It's better to sell them some and keep them dependent on us for those types of products.

 

[TLS Guy]

Now this possible connection to Trump

 

[shadyJ]

The sad thing is for all of our talk about what steps should be taken against Russia for their ongoing campaign to destabilize the west, nothing is going to happen as far as the United States is concerned, since our very leader is a Russian stooge. There is a mountain of evidence of Russian interference with the US election, but the current party in power is not acting on any of it, since that interference favors them, even though Russia's clear aim is to weaken the west and the US most of all. Our own worst enemy is an internal threat.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Our own worst enemy is an internal threat.

Isn't that a usual happening?

 

[mtrycrafts]

..

The present US president's wishes to retreat from a strong world-wide diplomatic & military presence is an open invitation to Russia to step in and cheaply accomplish it's goals.

How is that saying "united we stand, divided we fall?"

It is working.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Russian government behaviour can appear bewildering to people in the west, but there's method to their apparent madness. These assassinations (and attempts) look like clumsy overkill on the surface when they resort to chemical/radioactive weapons. I think it's all in an effort to silence other 'traitors'. They want to make it clear to victims (and potential victims) exactly who is behind these attacks, while at the same time, thumbing their nose at the British government, saying "prove it". And, even if you do prove it, what are you going to do about it?

The UK could ratchet up economic measures against Russia, but with Brexit, they won't get much buy-in from the EU. And, don't expect much help from Trump either. So, the UK, by herself can't really make Russia feel any economic pain.

It's difficult to say how natural gas fits into the equation. Russia needs the revenue, because they don't produce much else of value, besides weaponry, for which there isn't really a market in the west. So, they can't be hasty in shutting off the supplies. But, they haven't shown themselves to be completely reliable suppliers either. Western Europe needs to wean themselves off of Russian natural gas, as there is great vulnerability in that area.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-natural-gas-dispute-1.4566289

 

[highfigh]

Although TLS Guy is an old British-style Tory, and I'm an old US-style Democrat, we share the same views on Russia. Russia is a threat to all western nations, and some nations in the east as well.

Russia, under a wide variety of different governments, has always had the same foreign policy goals – invade & dominate others before they invade & dominate you. This has certainly been true whether under Putin (a former career KGB officer during the Soviet Union days), Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, etc. in the Soviet Union, or the various Tzars, Nicholas, Alexander et al. of the Imperial Russia days. Their major weapons are murder, espionage, blackmail, extortion, and false propaganda. These are more effective during peace time than during war.

The best peace time weapons the USA and others have are the frequent and loud repetition of the truth by a free press, plus maintaining an aggressive military presence. Believe it or not, the Russians are not only sensitive to outside criticism, they are also extremely paranoid. These tactics worked against the Soviet Union during the very long Cold War. Unfortunately it requires an expensive, full-time commitment.

The present US president's wishes to retreat from a strong world-wide diplomatic & military presence is an open invitation to Russia to step in and cheaply accomplish it's goals.

The way the US State Department is going, they might consider talking to Russian ex-pats who came here to escape the life that was thrust upon them. I know several and they all listen to what's going on over there, are in regular contact with people who still live there and have a completely different handle on the situation from the way Americans see it, with some similarities (mainly, the lack of trust). One runs a computer store and when a customer asked for his opinion on Kaspersky products, he said he doesn't trust them because it's a Russian company. OTOH, he's from Kiev, so it's not the same as being from Russia, proper.

 

[highfigh]

I agree. It takes cleverness and effort to understand an enemy's weak points and exploit them to your advantage.
Good example. Another example from the 1970s was the business of large 6-foot diameter seamless steel oil pipe. The only nations who could produce such pipe were the USA and Japan. Russia wanted to buy some to build oil pipe lines in Siberia. It was far better to sell them some rather than to challenge them to develop their own ability to manufacture such pipe. If I remember, there were many US Congressmen and Senators who opposed the sale of "strategic materials" to our Cold War enemies. It's better to sell them some and keep them dependent on us for those types of products.

Unless they acquire it in order to do some backward-engineering, like they did with three B-29s that were impounded during WWII.

 

[Irvrobinson]

So Irv, what is a proportionate response to this outrage?

I don't know. Ask me something about computers, cars, or audio.

Just guessing, since only two people were targeted, a statement of condemnation.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't know. Ask me something about computers, cars, or audio.

Just guessing, since only two people were targeted, a statement of condemnation.

They will laugh at that!

There are very likely other targets it seems.

According to news reports the nerve agent used is very rare and unusual.

The policeman is conscious today. The targets are still in a coma. I fear hypoxic brain damage.

By the sounds coming out of Westminster the response is going to be a lot more than a statement.

You just can't have dangerous stuff like that let loose on the streets of Britain. The UK government have already called it an act of war. I suspect an appropriate response to an act of war. Don't be surprised if a missile is shot by the RAF at a Russian plane or worse.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Don't be surprised if a missile is shot by the RAF at a Russian plane or worse.

I will be surprised. And I agree that Putin ignores anything consisting of only words. I just think that will be the likely response. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I know you hope I'm wrong, but I still think the response will round up to "Shame on you!".

 

[Swerd]

Another possible connection between Trump and Russia. This time, prior to his inauguration, a violation of the Logan Act, a federal felony.

Mueller gathers evidence that 2017 Seychelles meeting was effort to establish back channel to Kremlin

 

[TLS Guy]

The latest. Cemetery partially cordoned off.

It seems the UK is getting into a bellicose mood.

I would point out that this forum is doing a better job of covering this than most American newspapers!

I wonder if the Russian trolls will find it and register?

This is what Salisbury is and should be known for.

 

[GO-NAD!]

The UK government have already called it an act of war. I suspect an appropriate response to an act of war. Don't be surprised if a missile is shot by the RAF at a Russian plane or worse.

Responding to a criminal act - which, at the moment, it still is - with an unequivocal act of war, will not be greeted with sympathy by the UK's allies; not to mention putting UK military personnel at risk if the Russians decide to retaliate.

So no, I'm quite confidant that there will be no military response from the UK at this juncture...which doesn't mean there shouldn't be a response. It just needs to be proportional.

 

[Swerd]

The latest. Cemetery partially cordoned off.

It seems the UK is getting into a bellicose mood.

Thanks for the links from the UK press. I've been following this story in the BBC.

Unfortunately, the public news we see is rarely the full story. What we read may all be correct, but unless we know full story, which likely requires a high level security clearance, we won't know the true story. My experience back with the US Naval Security Group* back in the 1970s was that the public press could report international news that resembled the visible tip of an iceberg at sea. The other 90% of that iceberg was invisible. That could lead the public to conclude things which were actually quite different if you knew about that other 90%. A ready example I recall is the public news story (summer or 1970 or 1971?) about a Soviet submarine caught skulking around in Norway's complex coastline. The public news version reported that NATO surface ships trapped it in a fjord for about two weeks before it "got away". Apparently this was the non-classified version of the defection of a Soviet Navy submarine commander, that eventually was re-told as fiction, the novel The Hunt for the Red October.

* The Naval Security Group was a subsidiary of both Naval Intelligence and the civilian National Security Agency (NSA), roughly equivalent to the Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) of MI6 in the UK. The US Army and Air Force also had similar groups.

I would point out that this forum is doing a better job of covering this than most American newspapers!

I wonder if the Russian trolls will find it and register?

We'll have to keep an eye out for a sudden increase in posts, from guys called Ivan or Boris, about bi-wiring using amps with Sovtek vacuum tubes .