Dramatic Story unfolding in Salisbury (Old Sarum) Wiltshire. Good for a movie already

[TLS Guy]

A dramatic story is unfolding in one of England's most beautiful cathedral cities, Salisbury, near Stonehenge.

This is the latest in a series of outrages over the years to unfold on the streets of England perpetrated by Russia and members of the former Soviet block.

This is the stuff of movies but it is happening now. Incredible!

 

[Swerd]

This is the stuff of movies, but I can't decide if its The Spy Who Came in from the Cold or if it's The Godfather. From what we know about Vladimir Putin, I'd say its a combination of both.

Perhaps Mr. Trump should call his buddy Vlad and ask what's up. I'm sure its all fake news and that there was absolutely no collusion on anyone's part .

 

[TLS Guy]

This is the stuff of movies, but I can't decide if its The Spy Who Came in from the Cold or if it's The Godfather. From what we know about Vladimir Putin, I'd say its a combination of both.

Perhaps Mr. Trump should call his buddy Vlad and ask what's up. I'm sure its all fake news and that there was absolutely no collusion on anyone's part .

If this is in line with similar previous outrages, then Russia is still very much a rogue nation and we should all be worried.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
Perhaps Mr. Trump should call his buddy Vlad and ask what's up. ...

He would say " Just made a fortune. How about you?"

 

[shadyJ]

All western European nations and all of the anglosphere (USA, AUS, NZ) needs to take a much more aggressive posture against Russia. Russia is corrupting democracy the world over- with the help of nationalists the world over- by appealing the worst in human nature to weaken nations. It's unbelievable how badly they have damaged the USA and for a relatively small investment too. They knee-capped us by dividing us and then promoting the worst of us above all others. Their interference in our elections should be considered an act of war.

 

[highfigh]

All western European nations and all of the anglosphere (USA, AUS, NZ) needs to take a much more aggressive posture against Russia. Russia is corrupting democracy the world over- with the help of nationalists the world over- by appealing the worst in human nature to weaken nations. It's unbelievable how badly they have damaged the USA and for a relatively small investment too. They knee-capped us by dividing us and then promoting the worst of us above all others. Their interference in our elections should be considered an act of war.

OK, call it 'an act of war'- then, what? Do we bomb them, send our troops, impose financial sanctions? Let's sign a warrant for Putin's arrest- he'll just say "Come and get me".

They (Russians) changed the minds of people who may have been on the fence WRT their vote, possibly because they were ignorant of the differences, not willing to learn over the long haul of the campaign or not smart enough to look at the new "information" and compare it with the existing facts. Many wouldn't have voted for Hillary, regardless of what was presented by the Russians, but this may have installed a small kernal of doubt in the minds of others. Nobody wants to vote for someone when doubt exists. If anyone tries to do the same to Russia, what will be the effect? Their elections show what the party wants and Putin won't be removed until he dies.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK, call it 'an act of war'- then, what? Do we bomb them, send our troops, impose financial sanctions? Let's sign a warrant for Putin's arrest- he'll just say "Come and get me".

They (Russians) changed the minds of people who may have been on the fence WRT their vote, possibly because they were ignorant of the differences, not willing to learn over the long haul of the campaign or not smart enough to look at the new "information" and compare it with the existing facts. Many wouldn't have voted for Hillary, regardless of what was presented by the Russians, but this may have installed a small kernal of doubt in the minds of others. Nobody wants to vote for someone when doubt exists. If anyone tries to do the same to Russia, what will be the effect? Their elections show what the party wants and Putin won't be removed until he dies.

There should be more news later today. It seems they may have identified the agent. Russian trolls are certainly on overdrive in the newspaper comment sections today.

It may be time to recall ambassadors and certainly disrupt Russia's hosting of the world cup.

 

[shadyJ]

OK, call it 'an act of war'- then, what? Do we bomb them, send our troops, impose financial sanctions? Let's sign a warrant for Putin's arrest- he'll just say "Come and get me".

I would say put in place embargoes and do what we can to cut Russia off from the rest of the world. Seize their monetary assets where ever we can. Outlaw business relations with Russia for all US citizens with severe penalties for those who do trade with Russia. Strengthen NATO. Basically treat Russia like Cuba of decades past.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I would say put in place embargoes and do what we can to cut Russia off from the rest of the world. Seize their monetary assets where ever we can. Outlaw business relations with Russia for all US citizens with severe penalties for those who do trade with Russia. Strengthen NATO. Basically treat Russia like Cuba of decades past.

Harsh incarceration for criminals tends to harden them and exacerbate their problems. I think the same applies to nations through isolation.

 

[shadyJ]

Harsh incarceration for criminals tends to harden them and exacerbate their problems. I think the same applies to nations through isolation.

I think the sudden damage that would cause their economy would get the message across. Turning them into a pariah state would stress their system in a way that could change their mind about interfering with elections. If there is enough blowback for them, that may make them rethink their policies, and if it doesn't, it will at the least make it a lot harder for them to interfere with foreign elections when there is a much larger divide between them and the rest of the world.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I would say put in place embargoes and do what we can to cut Russia off from the rest of the world. Seize their monetary assets where ever we can. Outlaw business relations with Russia for all US citizens with severe penalties for those who do trade with Russia. Strengthen NATO. Basically treat Russia like Cuba of decades past.

Because it has worked so well with North Korea?

There are already targeted sanctions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Ukrainian_crisis

But, they haven't convinced the Russians to smarten up yet. In a democratic country, the suffering of its people from such sanctions would put pressure on that government. However, in Russia, public opinion is of far less concern to the regime. The thing about sanctions is, the Russian government gets a vote, too. If we expand sanctions, they could just turn off oil and gas supplies to western Europe. Sure, the loss of income would hurt, but they wouldn't be amongst the millions sitting in the cold and dark.

I agree that Russian shenanigans must be addressed, but it has to be done carefully. A complete economic embargo would not be careful, IMO.

 

[TLS Guy]

I may well have more news for you in a couple of hours or so. I will watch the BBC 6:00 PM news at noon central time.

This is the stuff of intrigue in an extraordinary beautiful and other wise tranquil setting. Salisbury is a lovely old medieval town. This is a strange back drop to international intrigue and espionage.

This is were the incident is thought to have taken place.

This is the cordon where the victims were found. Some first responders were injured and two police officers are in hospital.

This is another twist to the back story.

The home affairs select committee has called for a review into 14 deaths that were not treated as suspicious by UK police but were reportedly identified by US Intelligence officials to Buzzfeed as linked to Russia.

And of course this comes in the context of the notorious case of Alexander Litvinenko who was a Russian poisoned and murdered with Plutonium by the Russians in the UK. UK authorities actually know the name of the operative who perpetrated the crime. He is protected in Russia.

Another twist is that Salisbury is very close to Porton Down. This among other things is home to Britain's chemical and biological warfare research center founded in 1916. The Russian trolls in the comments sections of newspapers are suggesting Porton Down carried out the attack against Col. Skripal and his daughter.

Other pictures of Salisbury.

Salisbury Cathedral which is home to one of the oldest choirs in the UK. This choir was the subject of a BBC documentary a few years ago: - Angel Voices.

I do think in light of all this a very robust response is required now. Irv the kid glove approach has just emboldened them. They now think they have free reign to assassinate anyone they please on the streets of Britain and harm first responders and police as collateral damage. This is totally unacceptable.

 

[TLS Guy]

Because it has worked so well with North Korea?

There are already targeted sanctions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Ukrainian_crisis

But, they haven't convinced the Russians to smarten up yet. In a democratic country, the suffering of its people from such sanctions would put pressure on that government. However, in Russia, public opinion is of far less concern to the regime. The thing about sanctions is, the Russian government gets a vote, too. If we expand sanctions, they could just turn off oil and gas supplies to western Europe. Sure, the loss of income would hurt, but they wouldn't be amongst the millions sitting in the cold and dark.

I agree that Russian shenanigans must be addressed, but it has to be done carefully. A complete economic embargo would not be careful, IMO.

I agree with Shady. Next time a Russian aircraft come into UK airspace, which is not unusual, I hope the RAF shoot it down. It is time for much more muscular responses to Russian atrocities and provocation.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I think the sudden damage that would cause their economy would get the message across. Turning them into a pariah state would stress their system in a way that could change their mind about interfering with elections. If there is enough blowback for them, that may make them rethink their policies, and if it doesn't, it will at the least make it a lot harder for them to interfere with foreign elections when there is a much larger divide between them and the rest of the world.

I disagree. I think all that will do is force Putin to use aggression of any kind against the restricting nations to rally his population. With the exceptions of some Russian international business figures and a few progressive academics, Putin will have the support of the majority to push back in any way possible. His ego is too big to fold, and Russia isn't Cuba or North Korea. The economy is too big and self-sufficient, and Russia has considerable natural resources. And Russia has enough money to get many other countries to sell them what they need. Cuba and North Korea don't.

Every time the US tries economic restrictions or technology barriers on big countries it backfires. For example, China is a supercomputing restricted nation. The US won't allow the sale of certain US-sourced technologies used in supercomputers to China. Like Intel, IBM, or AMD microprocessors. So... what do the Chinese do? They developed their own supercomputing microprocessors and message-passing networks, and now Chinese supercomputers hold the #1 and #2 spots on the Top500 list of the world's known supercomputers. (It is thought that many supercomputers are secret, especially in the US, so this is probably a partial list.) See:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/04/10/us_intel_china_ban/

https://www.top500.org/lists/2017/11/

 

[Irvrobinson]

I agree with Shady. Next time a Russian aircraft come into UK airspace, which is not unusual, I hope the RAF shoot it down. It is time for much more muscular responses to Russian atrocities and provocation.

Unlikely. Our governments live by the "proportional response" policy.

 

[mtrycrafts]

....
They (Russians) changed the minds of people who may have been on the fence WRT their vote, possibly because they were ignorant of the differences, not willing to learn over the long haul of the campaign or not smart enough to look at the new "information" and compare it with the existing facts. Many wouldn't have voted for Hillary, regardless of what was presented by the Russians, but this may have installed a small kernal of doubt in the minds of others. Nobody wants to vote for someone when doubt exists. If anyone tries to do the same to Russia, what will be the effect? Their elections show what the party wants and Putin won't be removed until he dies.

Advertisement, positive, negative or fake propaganda works. Why would companies advertise if it didn't work. Of course it works and worked to change enough minds to matter.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

I agree that Russian shenanigans must be addressed, but it has to be done carefully. A complete economic embargo would not be careful, IMO.

I wonder if a more forceful exposure of their bot activity and cutting off their access to those medias quickly would work.

 

[TLS Guy]

LATEST NEWS!

The anti terrorist division of the Metropolitan Police say that a potent nerve agent was used in this attack. They know the identity of the substance but are withholding that information at present.
They say that this agent could only have been produced by a nation state.

In my view and others I would put Russia at the top of the list.

Col Skipal and his daughter remain seriously ill. Sadly the first Police officer to arrive on the scene is also fighting for his life in the ICU and may well not survive.

So Irv, what is a proportionate response to this outrage?

As soon as there is proof of Russian involvement I expect a robust response. As a start I expect most of the Russian embassy staff will be sent home. There likely will be a lot more to follow.

Letting loose a deadly nerve agent in a high tourist area is an act of war and requires a big response.

 

[highfigh]

LATEST NEWS!

The anti terrorist division of the Metropolitan Police say that a potent nerve agent was used in this attack. They know the identity of the substance but are withholding that information at present.
They say that this agent could only have been produced by a nation state.

In my view and others I would put Russia at the top of the list.

Col Skipal and his daughter remain seriously ill. Sadly the first Police officer to arrive on the scene is also fighting for his life in the ICU and may well not survive.

So Irv, what is a proportionate response to this outrage?

As soon as there is proof of Russian involvement I expect a robust response. As a start I expect most of the Russian embassy staff will be sent home. There likely will be a lot more to follow.

Letting loose a deadly nerve agent in a high tourist area is an act of war and requires a big response.

I would expect the response to claims that it was an act of war to be something along the lines of "We didn't mean to affect actual Brits, just a couple of Russian who defected".

If they can connect this to Putin, the ICC should file an arrest warrant and next time he leaves Russia, grab him. If his guards try to fight the arrest, oh, well.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would expect the response to claims that it was an act of war to be something along the lines of "We didn't mean to affect actual Brits, just a couple of Russian who defected".

If they can connect this to Putin, the ICC should file an arrest warrant and next time he leaves Russia, grab him. If his guards try to fight the arrest, oh, well.

He had already announced previously that he was going to kill them!