My cheaper Marantz vs my higher end stuff...

ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
So, Marantz with SVS sub replaced the Parasound/ATI with or without the sub?

List the equipment used in each setup and their settings. The way you wrote this makes it look like you changed to the Polks AND changed from Parasound/ATI to Marantz, today. Was the Parasound connected to the sub? If you used a HO crossover on the Polks before, it could explain part of the difference- they weren't providing anything/much below the crossover frequency.
First set up
Parasound P5
Marantz CD6004
ATI 2000 AMP
Polk LSIM 703
SVS sub

Second set up
Marantz pm8005
Marantz CD6004
Polk LSIM 703
SVS sub

Same location. nothing moved at all. I turned off the Parsound and ATI amp. Switched the Sub connection and CD player to the Marantz. I had to change the SVS sub from LFE to cut off at 60 and use it's internal cross over since the Marantz has no sub controls. That's it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
First set up
Parasound P5
Marantz CD6004
ATI 2000 AMP
Polk LSIM 703
SVS sub

Second set up
Marantz pm8005
Marantz CD6004
Polk LSIM 703
SVS sub

Same location. nothing moved at all. I turned off the Parsound and ATI amp. Switched the Sub connection and CD player to the Marantz. I had to change the SVS sub from LFE to cut off at 60 and use it's internal cross over since the Marantz has no sub controls. That's it.
Once you confirmed the phasing, try comparing again volume matched, no sub, pure direct. If the results doesn't change then I am out of ideas.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Once you confirmed the phasing, try comparing again volume matched, no sub, pure direct. If the results doesn't change then I am out of ideas.
Will do that this week. Thanks
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Will do that this week. Thanks
If nothing change, then you an sell the P5/ATI2000 and buy another 8005. A better and simpler solution right.:D I can tell you after owning a C$299 pro amp for a while I am about ready to sell my Parasound Halo A21 too.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
First set up
Parasound P5
Marantz CD6004
ATI 2000 AMP
Polk LSIM 703
SVS sub

Second set up
Marantz pm8005
Marantz CD6004
Polk LSIM 703
SVS sub

Same location. nothing moved at all. I turned off the Parsound and ATI amp. Switched the Sub connection and CD player to the Marantz. I had to change the SVS sub from LFE to cut off at 60 and use it's internal cross over since the Marantz has no sub controls. That's it.
Did you use the Parasound pre-outs with crossover, or not? If not, I would try it again because you did make a change on the sub that could influence the outcome.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It nothing change, then you an sell the P5/ATI2000 and buy another 8005. A better and simpler solution right.:D I can tell you after owning a C$299 pro amp for a while I am about ready to sell my Parasound Halo A21 too.
I think he's dreaming about the $8,000 Marantz PM10S1 and thinking about the $3,000 Marantz PM14S1. ;)
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Did you use the Parasound pre-outs with crossover, or not? If not, I would try it again because you did make a change on the sub that could influence the outcome.
I ran it with the sub on and off on the P5. I'm going to go back and replayit all and see what I find out.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Or...... Get a Marantz Pre pro and run it as a 2.1 set up through Audesey.. Buying an AVR for my audio only system... Wow.. never thought I would consider it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I ran it with the sub on and off on the P5. I'm going to go back and replayit all and see what I find out.
I'm having a hard time with the part where you wrote that the Marantz has more headroom, at its 70WPC rating compared with the ATI's 200WPC. If they're both operating properly, it's not likely. Sure would be good if the ATI site showed the specs for the 2002, though. I clicked on their link and it showed 404-page not found. Clicking on 'Specs' shows several models, but not yours.

Having owned a P5 and having noticed that the overall improvement in sound was very similar to the way you described yours, I don't know what to tell you. I heard more width, height, dynamics and(obviously) more headroom than that of the Denon AVR-2313CI- I like Marantz, but if you do this test again, make sure the P5's filters have been turned off, just in case that matters. If you had to move a speaker the last time, it's still possible that it's not in exactly the same place as it was for the first test and from experience, a small change there can make all of the difference.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm having a hard time with the part where you wrote that the Marantz has more headroom, at its 70WPC rating compared with the ATI's 200WPC. If they're both operating properly, it's not likely. Sure would be good if the ATI site showed the specs for the 2002, though.
We have to indirectly find out the power output of the ATI since we know that ATI makes amps for Outlaw, Monoprice Monolith, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Cary Audio. Here are the measurements for the Monolith amp:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/monoprice-monolith-7-amplifier-review-test-bench

Basically 2Ch @ 1% THD, the AT2000/sister amps can output about 255W/8-ohms and 400W/4-ohms.

Here is the AT3000 and AT2000 Amp Manual w/ specs:

http://www.ati-amp.com/manuals/at3000.pdf
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
C$299 pro amp..= Crown?
QSC MRX 850a, typically C$499 or US$ 399.99 but I noticed the price dropped C$200 that I have never seen before so I grabbed one even though I have too many amps already.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
We have to indirectly find out the power output of the ATI since we know that ATI makes amps for Outlaw, Monoprice Monolith, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Cary Audio. Here are the measurements for the Monolith amp:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/monoprice-monolith-7-amplifier-review-test-bench

Basically 2Ch @ 1% THD, the AT2000/sister amps can output about 255W/8-ohms and 400W/4-ohms.

Here is the AT3000 and AT2000 Amp Manual w/ specs:

http://www.ati-amp.com/manuals/at3000.pdf
I am 100% sure that the "better" sound is not due to the amps, Marantz or P5/ATI2002 unless the equipment is defective. There is a simple explanation for that, if he is curious enough he will get to the bottom of it and will let us know. Until then we just have to be patient.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
I am 100% sure that the "better" sound is not due to the amps, Marantz or P5/ATI2002 unless the equipment is defective. There is a simple explanation for that, if he is curious enough he will get to the bottom of it and will let us know. Until then we just have to be patient.
It may be a few days but I’ll post back what I find. I did just check the polarity when I got home.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
So I just did an hour of playback on both systems. I eliminated the sub all together. Same two set ups running the Polk LSMI 703 at full range. Volume was set at 9:00 on both. So the outcome was much closer this time around. The only sound difference that I could tell was the Marantz did seem a touch warmer. Also at the 9:00 setting the Marantz was a touch louder. So the conclusion is the bass from the sub is much greater using the Marantz and the sub controls. In fact, I think I have always had a volume issue with the sub on the P5. I have to crank up the volume knob on the sub way up to get good output. As I said in the above post, I had to turn the sub volume down to 50% when I hooked up the Marantz.... So what the hell is wrong with the Parasound P5 when using a sub??
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So I just did an hour of playback on both systems. I eliminated the sub all together. Same two set ups running the Polk LSMI 703 at full range. Volume was set at 9:00 on both. So the outcome was much closer this time around. The only sound difference that I could tell was the Marantz did seem a touch warmer. Also at the 9:00 setting the Marantz was a touch louder. So the conclusion is the bass from the sub is much greater using the Marantz and the sub controls. In fact, I think I have always had a volume issue with the sub on the P5. I have to crank up the volume knob on the sub way up to get good output. As I said in the above post, I had to turn the sub volume down to 50% when I hooked up the Marantz.... So what the hell is wrong with the Parasound P5 when using a sub??
So you checked the polarities and they are good, and you've narrowed it down to the sub. In that case, I would definitely try to us RCA for both next. Thing is, if you want to really compare apple to apple whether then you want to in fact do what you can, to get as close to apple to apple as possible. We all know there is a gain and SN difference between balanced and single ended. I do not believe that would make a difference but let's eliminate another variable.

Another point is that you should not rely on the volume position. Volume matching using a SPL meter is a simple and practical way to do it. Ideally, if you have a good voltmeter, it is preferred, but again, a spl meter is good for all intents and purposes.

If you have done both things I mentioned above, your wife, or just a friend you is willing to participate, would not hear that "warm" thing. That, I dare say (let me apologize to you in advance now) it is the hearsay thing from the long past that got embedded in people's head and managed to generate expectation bias 90 out of 100 times. The other times would be due to something real, such as the heavier low to mid bass for one set up that may in turn be due to imperfect set up for comparisons and you have just experienced that yourself.

As I said in the above post, I had to turn the sub volume down to 50% when I hooked up the Marantz.... So what the hell is wrong with the Parasound P5 when using a sub??
I would say there is nothing wrong "as such". The PM8005 does not have subwoofer output so I assume you have to use the preout. The P5 has dedicated subwoofer outputs, complete with crossover switches for both the preouts and the subouts and then it has an independent subwoofer level control knob on the front panel.

So you can see that if use the P5's subout, the gain structure between it and the Marantz PM8005 could be quite different, and compounded if you did use the crossover switches when doing you A/B comparisons.

By the way, now that you have eliminated the subwoofer (a necessary step), please make sure you turn off the P5's high pass crossover switch for the mains so that your Polks are getting full range when hooked up to the ATI power amp.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
So you checked the polarities and they are good, and you've narrowed it down to the sub. In that case, I would definitely try to us RCA for both next. Thing is, if you want to really compare apple to apple whether then you want to in fact do what you can, to get as close to apple to apple as possible. We all know there is a gain and SN difference between balanced and single ended. I do not believe that would make a difference but let's eliminate another variable.

Another point is that you should not rely on the volume position. Volume matching using a SPL meter is a simple and practical way to do it. Ideally, if you have a good voltmeter, it is preferred, but again, a spl meter is good for all intents and purposes.

If you have done both things I mentioned above, your wife, or just a friend you is willing to participate, would not hear that "warm" thing. That, I dare say (let me apologize to you in advance now) it is the hearsay thing from the long past that got embedded in people's head and managed to generate expectation bias 90 out of 100 times. The other times would be due to something real, such as the heavier low to mid bass for one set up that may in turn be due to imperfect set up for comparisons and you have just experienced that yourself.



I would say there is nothing wrong "as such". The PM8005 does not have subwoofer output so I assume you have to use the preout. The P5 has dedicated subwoofer outputs, complete with crossover switches for both the preouts and the subouts and then it has an independent subwoofer level control knob on the front panel.

So you can see that if use the P5's subout, the gain structure between it and the Marantz PM8005 could be quite different, and compounded if you did use the crossover switches when doing you A/B comparisons.

By the way, now that you have eliminated the subwoofer (a necessary step), please make sure you turn off the P5's high pass crossover switch for the mains so that your Polks are getting full range when hooked up to the ATI power amp.
Just throwing in and agreeing with Peng, especially on the volume position. You have to use an spl meter to level match your speakers for an accurate a/b comparison. There are many other factors that can come into play when listening for differences in audio equipment, but if you're not level matched it will throw the whole thing out of whack.

A difference of even 1dB can be perceived as one sounding more detailed (or more headroom) than the other due to the way we percieve sound.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
[

By the way, now that you have eliminated the subwoofer (a necessary step), please make sure you turn off the P5's high pass crossover switch for the mains so that your Polks are getting full range when hooked up to the ATI power amp.[/QUOTE]

I did. All turned off on the P5. So things were almost undetectable on playback as mentioned above without the sub in the mix. So the difference is the sub feed with Preout on the Marantz and the P5 having the dedicated sub output. It's as if the P5 doesn't send a strong enough signal to the sub. So the sub doesn't get very loud.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It's as if the P5 doesn't sent a strong enough signal to the sub. So the sub doesn't get very loud.
It seems like the Parasound P5 has been an unhappy experience from the start.

I think it's time to finally say goodbye to the P5 and start a new chapter, whether it is a Marantz Integrated Amp or Marantz Pre-pro + ATI AT2002.

If you like strong subwoofer signal, I think you may be a good candidate for Audyssey Dynamic EQ. :D

Have you ever experimented with Audyssey Dynamic EQ?
 

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