Upgrade Bug for mains' amps: successfully suppressed, but seeking advice (comparisons, experience)

J

Jsandman

Enthusiast
First and foremost, I want to thank anyone who takes the time to read this and especially anyone that can give relevant input:

I own two Audiosource Amp310's, each of which are bridged and thus utilized as 450W monoblocks to power my left and right tower speakers (Polk RTiA9s. A Marantz SR-7011 is being used as the pre-pro.) I have had a few issues with these amps that I have troubleshooted my way through. I can provide details if anyone wants to know about those issues, but what I am really seeking advice about is whether or not I should replace the amps with offerings I am considering from Rotel or Parasound. FYI: my system is utilized 60/40 for music/movies, respectively. 95% of music listening is in 2-channel, hence my focus on my mains' amps.

After scouring eBay and a number of sites that sell used/discounted audiophile gear, I was seriously considering devoting a healthy budget ($400-$800+) to purchasing used Parasound A23s, which I would also bridge to be mono-blocks, or older offerings from Rotel, e.g. 1090, 1091s, or bridged 1070s or 981s. (I have yet to find ANY slightly negative reviews of the 981s, even as old as they are!) It seemed like the Parasound A23s were the obvious choice, but that is likely the most expensive option (beyond my budget) and although extremely rare, the cons and negative reviews of the A23s do give me pause. I am also looking at what many would likely consider to be the next tier up above Parasound or Rotel: a Krell KAV-250A, but this amp does not nearly match the power ratings of the other aforementioned amps. (Is Krell really of such better quality to choose one of its amps at half the power of a Parasound or Rotel amp?)

But beyond any of that, further research into all of those amps and my own Audiosource amps - including reviewing general amp info on Audioholics' site and YouTube channel - have led me to the conclusion that upgrading to any of those options would ultimately result in little to no sound quality improvement, or possibly a different sound signature which I may or may not prefer. When I began my research, I though my Audiosource amps were Class D, but now I'm pretty sure they're actually A/B. (It's been difficult for me to find info or reviews on Audiosource gear.) Most of the aforementioned options (except the Rotel RB-1091s) are also Class A/B. Now I know every piece of audio equipment contributes its own sound signature to a system. And no, I have not demo'd any of the aforementioned options to do an A-B comparison, which is why I am soliciting advice, especially because if I make a purchase, there is likely no avenue to make a return.

I've slowly built my systems over the years by purchasing mostly used equipment without a demo. I've been pleased with the results every time because despite not using the equipment before the purchasing, I made informed decisions based on research. But in this case, despite extensive research, I feel like there are so many unknowns. So I'm asking the experienced audiophile community: Have I reached an accurate conclusion by deciding not to replace my amps (and saving my money,) or am I about to pass up an opportunity to gain vast sonic improvements in my system that would be well worth my allotted budget?
 
carlthess40

carlthess40

Audioholic
The krell are a class A amp so be ready for a larger power bill
The sound of the krell are outstanding. As for the amps you are using now are of low grade amps so I can see why your not happy. Can your speakers be byamp and tryamp? If they can I would go that way and use lower power amps on each input and see how that sounds. I have a amp that has two. Left and right inputs , but has 3 outputs for each channel. And each one is a true 70 watts and each can handle 4ohms , and yes each one is it’s own independent out put amp.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Now I know every piece of audio equipment contributes its own sound signature to a system. And no, I have not demo'd any of the aforementioned options to do an A-B comparison, which is why I am soliciting advice, especially because if I make a purchase, there is likely no avenue to make a return.
There are magazines that will wax poetic about how this amp has a warm or cold sound or hard or soft sound, etc.
However, the goal of any amplifier is to amplify the input without changing that signal. If an amp imparts its own sound signature, that is, by definition, distortion.
Amplification is a mature technology and should be free of any audible distortion.
Places where amplification may result in an audible difference is when the amp is being pushed beyond its capabilities. Most typically, this would be a situation where either the speakers has abnormally difficult load characteristics (such as impedance drops well below 4 Ohms or very low efficiency) or the amp design incorporates short-cuts (which you will not typically see from a mainstream manufacturer's amplifier).

One concern I do have (but am not sure of) is the Audiosource (and many amps when bridged) only provides specifications for an 8 Ohm load. They do not provide a specification for bridged operation into 4 Ohms. On some amps, running the amp bridged into 4 Ohm loading will cause problems!

Sound and Vision measured the following for your A9's:
L/R Sensitivity: 90.5 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz
Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.49 ohms at 67 Hz and a phase angle of –49.39 degrees at 22 Hz.
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/polk-rti-a9-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures#uFXmDhF0F4ORWcCq.99
Okay, I found the manual for the Audiosource 300. On page 5, it has the following caution:
NOTE: Only one pair of channels can be bridged together. Do not attempt to bridge both A & B speaker terminals, as this may result in a lower impedance than the amplifier is designed to accommodate, and may damage your amplifier. The minimum impedance for the total load connected to a pair of channels in the bridged mode is 8-ohm.
So, with the Rti A9's, you are operating that amp outside of its intended design parameters!

The good news is 90.5 dB sensitivity means the unbridged 235 Watts per channel into 4Ohm capability of your amp will drive the A9's to ear bleeding levels quite easily.
The bad news is you may have overheated your amp. I would pop the top and look for any discoloration or melting of components. Also check for leakage around the capacitors. Ideally the unit should shut off before any damage occurred. Parts Express should be able to help you with this evaluation, just make sure you speak with a technician familiar with their amps rather than the first CS rep you get on the phone. (sometimes email is the best approach as they will forward it to the right people).

Before you think it was Audiosource that cheaped out on the build of your amp, note that page 6 of the Parasound A23 manual says:
IMPORTANT! - Before trying bridged mono
You should not connect a speaker with an impedance of less than 8 Ohms to the A23 when it is configured for bridged mono operation.
When running in bridged mode, that 4.49 Ohm load becomes 2.25 Ohms and even many very high dollar amps cannot support that low of an impedance for very long!

Bottom line: Your speakers are quite efficient and can be reasonably driven by any typical AVR or amplifier in normal stereo mode. 100 watts is more than enough. Bridged mode increases the wattage available but substantially decreases the amp's ability to deal with high current situations! Just stay away from bridging unless you have a very specific circumstance to recommend it. It is somewhat deceptive that some amp manufacturers throw around their bridged power levels without any qualifiers in their marketing materials.
 
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J

Jsandman

Enthusiast
Thank you, carlthess40 and especially Kurt (aka KEW.) You are actually both giving me the same advice, and I especially, very VERY much appreciate your explanation, Kurt! (Quick note, though: I own Amp 310s, not Amp 300s. But your information still applies given their similarities.)

I will check out my amps, but I very much doubt that I damaged anything. I set my Marantz to cap its volume at 80/100, but I RARELY have any opportunities to set the volume up to 60-70 thanks to my loving wife. Also, I have thermal sensors sitting on top of my amps that rarely turn my fans on (they're set for 88 degrees.) Finally, one "problem" I mentioned above that was actually my fault was when one of my amp's fuse blew because I accidentally dropped a small small metal object on a speaker terminal to momentarily "bridge" a positive and negative terminal. But replacing the fuse ($5) fixed that! But the point in my sharing that story is that I am confident that any protection mechanisms would kick in if I pushed my amps to the point where any components would be damaged.

Again, Kurt, your information is extremely helpful: I have also noticed that the mid-bass output (which would be around 67Hz!!!) is a little lower than the high or mid frequency output on my RTiA9s. I will try bi-amping in stereo mode to see if I notice any difference.

You both have saved me from potentially wasting my funds on items that will not likely yield better results: I was planning on bridging the A23s or any of the 2-channel Rotels if I were to purchase them!

I will always welcome more input from either of you or anyone else. But I think I am now armed with the information I need. Thank you again!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Thank you, carlthess40 and especially Kurt (aka KEW.) You are actually both giving me the same advice, and I especially, very VERY much appreciate your explanation, Kurt! (Quick note, though: I own Amp 310s, not Amp 300s. But your information still applies given their similarities.)

I will check out my amps, but I very much doubt that I damaged anything. I set my Marantz to cap its volume at 80/100, but I RARELY have any opportunities to set the volume up to 60-70 thanks to my loving wife. Also, I have thermal sensors sitting on top of my amps that rarely turn my fans on (they're set for 88 degrees.) Finally, one "problem" I mentioned above that was actually my fault was when one of my amp's fuse blew because I accidentally dropped a small small metal object on a speaker terminal to momentarily "bridge" a positive and negative terminal. But replacing the fuse ($5) fixed that! But the point in my sharing that story is that I am confident that any protection mechanisms would kick in if I pushed my amps to the point where any components would be damaged.

Again, Kurt, your information is extremely helpful: I have also noticed that the mid-bass output (which would be around 67Hz!!!) is a little lower than the high or mid frequency output on my RTiA9s. I will try bi-amping in stereo mode to see if I notice any difference.

You both have saved me from potentially wasting my funds on items that will not likely yield better results: I was planning on bridging the A23s or any of the 2-channel Rotels if I were to purchase them!

I will always welcome more input from either of you or anyone else. But I think I am now armed with the information I need. Thank you again!
You've got enough amp channels to do it, but don't expect much difference from bi-amping (you would be "passive bi-amping" with those speakers). Just be careful to follow the instructions correctly - most importantly, be sure to remove the jumpers on the back of your speakers. If you don't, I'm not sure the fuse/protection circuit is fast enough to react to that situation!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I’ve owned a couple of Audiosource and their generics amps back in the days b/c they were so cheap. :D

They were the most noisy Amps I’ve ever owned. I would never own them again.
 
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