Is there a power conditioner that would regulate frequency?

[rnk.khch]

All the common power conditioners I've seen seem to not regulate the frequency. Are there any good/reliable units that would ensure constant output of 60Hz power?

Thanks!

 

[panteragstk]

That's not something a power conditioner would do. Or anything other than a transformer IIRC. Really, most power conditioners don't do much of anything.

A UPS with voltage regulation is the best thing you can get.

 

[slipperybidness]

All the common power conditioners I've seen seem to not regulate the frequency. Are there any good/reliable units that would ensure constant output of 60Hz power?

Thanks!

Why would you be concerned about frequency regulation?

That seems a bit odd.

And, do you understand how an AC-to-DC power supply works? And, how a (filter) capacitor charge/discharge cycle varies with input frequency?

 

[highfigh]

All the common power conditioners I've seen seem to not regulate the frequency. Are there any good/reliable units that would ensure constant output of 60Hz power?

Thanks!

Even if the power grid frequency varies by a few Hz, it won't cause problems unless you have something with a synchronous motor.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

That's not something a power conditioner would do. Or anything other than a transformer IIRC. Really, most power conditioners don't do much of anything.

A UPS with voltage regulation is the best thing you can get.

Agreed. Ideally one with Pure Sine AC output

 

[TLS Guy]

All the common power conditioners I've seen seem to not regulate the frequency. Are there any good/reliable units that would ensure constant output of 60Hz power?

Thanks!

The only type of unit that would do that is a regenerative UPS. These units totally regenerate the AC output from an on board oscillator. These units have a 40% efficiency at best. They generate a lot of heat and because of that are prone to reliability problems. I would not advise their use unless you are powering off grid from say your own generator.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The only type of unit that would do that is a regenerative UPS. These units totally regenerate the AC output from an on board oscillator. These units have a 40% efficiency at best. They generate a lot of heat and because of that are prone to reliability problems. I would not advise their use unless you are powering off grid from say your own generator.

Exactly.

Some old audio trivia on AC regeneration... when the Mark Levinson brand was owned by Madrigal Labs in the 1990s, they actually used an AC regeneration power supply in two mono block amplifiers, the No.33 and No. 33H. This power supply design represented a silly level of over-engineering in the original No. 33, and was apparently intended just to be a "statement" product to support the brand, not ever be a volume commercial offering. I figured Madrigal lost money on every one they sold, looking at the parts and assembly complexity in the marketing literature, even at the $16.5K price per monoblock in 1994. Much to Madrigal's surprise, there were hundreds of people with far more money than sense, and multiple publications reported (and my dealer joked with me) that the silly things were back-ordered for months, even though Madrigal was producing them as fast as they could. (Stereophile quoted Madrigal as building 30 units per month, I just read.) I'm guessing to cut their losses, they introduced a much simplified amplifier, the No. 33H, that was obviously far cheaper and easier to build, but still had a silly AC regeneration power supply, and the 33H monos sold for a mere $10K each, back when $10K was a lot of money. ;-) Given how easy it is to find used pairs of the 33H, I'm guessing they sold thousands of them.

I saw a pair of the original No. 33s at an audio show in LA back then, and they were huge, looking just like one of those old vertical desk-side servers, but with enormous black-anodized aluminum heatsinks. They attracted more traffic than almost any other product I saw, save some even more enormous Dunlavy speakers (which I actually coveted). The No.33s were so inefficient that they needed a 40amp 220v power source to achieve their rated power into 4 ohm loads (600 watts). The power cords looked like computer room stuff for racks of servers.

 

[rnk.khch]

Thanks for all the info! The reason I was asking was to make sure I have the best protection/sound for my Roland RD-2000. Currently I power it, and my amps, through an APC BR1350MS (pure sine wave) UPS and a Furman P-1800 AR power conditioner/voltage regulator.

Seems like I don't need to worry about frequency fluctuations?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for all the info! The reason I was asking was to make sure I have the best protection/sound for my Roland RD-2000. Currently I power it, and my amps, through an APC BR1350MS (pure sine wave) UPS and a Furman P-1800 AR power conditioner/voltage regulator.

Seems like I don't need to worry about frequency fluctuations?

First of all your APC unit regulates voltage, it is in the spec. of your unit. I have used APC units for years and they do an excellent job of voltage regulation. You absolutely should not be cascading units. You should not be using the Furman unit as well. That needs to go now.

No, you do not have to worry about cycle frequency, as that has to be tightly controlled at the power plants. Phase changes between generators would cause enormous damage to the generator units. So phase and frequency have to be tightly controlled at source or the whole system would come crashing down.

 

[Speedskater]

The power grid is huge and interlocked, so it's hard to vary even a tenth of a hertz. However noise spikes could confuse old fashioned clock radios that used the power line frequency as their only unfiltered reference.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You should invest in this meter
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=asc_df_B00009MDBU5369862/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B00009MDBU&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167125429392&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3261023552831922649&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031897&hvtargid=pla-306572288073

And see if you have a frequency variation over time or at different times of a day.
Also, this is a very good line voltage indicator, etc.

 

[jsrtheta]

Exactly.

Some old audio trivia on AC regeneration... when the Mark Levinson brand was owned by Madrigal Labs in the 1990s, they actually used an AC regeneration power supply in two mono block amplifiers, the No.33 and No. 33H. This power supply design represented a silly level of over-engineering in the original No. 33, and was apparently intended just to be a "statement" product to support the brand, not ever be a volume commercial offering. I figured Madrigal lost money on every one they sold, looking at the parts and assembly complexity in the marketing literature, even at the $16.5K price per monoblock in 1994. Much to Madrigal's surprise, there were hundreds of people with far more money than sense, and multiple publications reported (and my dealer joked with me) that the silly things were back-ordered for months, even though Madrigal was producing them as fast as they could. (Stereophile quoted Madrigal as building 30 units per month, I just read.) I'm guessing to cut their losses, they introduced a much simplified amplifier, the No. 33H, that was obviously far cheaper and easier to build, but still had a silly AC regeneration power supply, and the 33H monos sold for a mere $10K each, back when $10K was a lot of money. ;-) Given how easy it is to find used pairs of the 33H, I'm guessing they sold thousands of them.

I saw a pair of the original No. 33s at an audio show in LA back then, and they were huge, looking just like one of those old vertical desk-side servers, but with enormous black-anodized aluminum heatsinks. They attracted more traffic than almost any other product I saw, save some even more enormous Dunlavy speakers (which I actually coveted). The No.33s were so inefficient that they needed a 40amp 220v power source to achieve their rated power into 4 ohm loads (600 watts). The power cords looked like computer room stuff for racks of servers.

At $16.5, they didn't lose any money. Unless they were laughing so hard that they dropped the money bags on the way to the bank.

 

[Irvrobinson]

At $16.5, they didn't lose any money. Unless they were laughing so hard that they dropped the money bags on the way to the bank.

You have experience in electronics manufacturing pricing?

And keep in mind, the dealer probably got 40% or more off the top.

 

[jsrtheta]

You have experience in electronics manufacturing pricing?

And keep in mind, the dealer probably got 40% or more off the top.

What could possibly justify such a price?

 

[Irvrobinson]

What could possibly justify such a price?

Just for starters, they have a net weight of about 300lbs each, and the shipping weight for each one was 435lbs. I imagine the anodized extruded aluminum heat sinks that run down each side had a production cost of hundreds of dollars. The power supply is full custom, has many tens of parts, and includes AC regeneration. Even after AC regeneration, each amp has a balanced power supply, which means two huge power transformers in a mono block. The amplifier stages are completely discrete, laid out on teflon circuit boards (not FR4, which is yet another silly bit of over-engineering at audio frequencies), there are 40 matched output transistors, and it needs a 30 or 40amp 220v line to get it to rated output.

Assuming the dealer got 40% gross margin, that left Madrigal $9900 per amp. Packaging alone, including custom protective packaging and palletizing, probably ran to a couple of hundred bucks or more. Shipping is also going to be expensive, and they probably needed one of those carriers that specialized in stuff like medical equipment. Speaking of, I'm guessing all of the board design and stuffing was done by defense / medical equipment people. They aren't cheap. An amp like this was a massive undertaking, so, yeah, I think they lost money on every one.

Read for yourself about it:

https://marklevinson.com/tl_files/catalog//Mark Levinson/Manuals/No33/prod_186_634722476892713969_no33_om.pdf

 

[jsrtheta]

Just for starters, they have a net weight of about 300lbs each, and the shipping weight for each one was 435lbs. I imagine the anodized extruded aluminum heat sinks that run down each side had a production cost of hundreds of dollars. The power supply is full custom, has many tens of parts, and includes AC regeneration. Even after AC regeneration, each amp has a balanced power supply, which means two huge power transformers in a mono block. The amplifier stages are completely discrete, laid out on teflon circuit boards (not FR4, which is yet another silly bit of over-engineering at audio frequencies), there are 40 matched output transistors, and it needs a 30 or 40amp 220v line to get it to rated output.

Assuming the dealer got 40% gross margin, that left Madrigal $9900 per amp. Packaging alone, including custom protective packaging and palletizing, probably ran to a couple of hundred bucks or more. Shipping is also going to be expensive, and they probably needed one of those carriers that specialized in stuff like medical equipment. Speaking of, I'm guessing all of the board design and stuffing was done by defense / medical equipment people. They aren't cheap. An amp like this was a massive undertaking, so, yeah, I think they lost money on every one.

Read for yourself about it:

https://marklevinson.com/tl_files/catalog//Mark Levinson/Manuals/No33/prod_186_634722476892713969_no33_om.pdf

Taking your estimate, that the dealer got a 40% take (which I think is quite close if not spot on), remember that Levinson gets that before they lift a finger to ship one. And lots of things weigh more than 400 lbs., that doesn't mean they are worth $16.5k.

I have no idea why they would need "defense/medical equipment people." This is their business, they design and build amplifiers, they are not sending a man to Mars. Generously, I think you're maybe up to a grand in parts.

So we have an overbuilt, heavy amplifier that costs nowhere near $10,000 to make. From a company backed by Harman International, that is in it to make money, and that damned well knows their market and how many they will sell. (And likely to whom, and where they live, and what they gross.) Heck, part of the price is the cost of the name, like "Cadillac."

And you know what? It will sound like just about every other amp out there. It represents a sort of ideal, that's its appeal, but it isn't a miracle.

It's an amp.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Taking your estimate, that the dealer got a 40% take (which I think is quite close if not spot on), remember that Levinson gets that before they lift a finger to ship one. And lots of things weigh more than 400 lbs., that doesn't mean they are worth $16.5k.

I have no idea why they would need "defense/medical equipment people." This is their business, they design and build amplifiers, they are not sending a man to Mars. Generously, I think you're maybe up to a grand in parts.

So we have an overbuilt, heavy amplifier that costs nowhere near $10,000 to make. From a company backed by Harman International, that is in it to make money, and that damned well knows their market and how many they will sell. (And likely to whom, and where they live, and what they gross.) Heck, part of the price is the cost of the name, like "Cadillac."

And you know what? It will sound like just about every other amp out there. It represents a sort of ideal, that's its appeal, but it isn't a miracle.

It's an amp.

Passionate when you have no idea what you're talking about. What a great addition to the forums!

"... a grand in parts..." That's ridiculous.

Before I put you on my ignore list, let's a get a couple of things straight.

When this amp was designed and manufactured the Levinson brand wasn't owned by Harman, it was owned by a little company called Madrigal, who specialized in high-end audio. Low-volume stuff.

Levinson didn't get the 40% dealer mark-up, the dealer did. Levinson got (if my guess is correct), 16,500 * 60% = $9900.

There was (and still is) a small industry in the US that specializes in the assembly of relatively small lots of electronics for the defense industry and medical equipment. They're not about advanced technologies per se, they're about full-custom, low quantities, and super quality. Some companies in the high-end audio industry have used these contract manufacturers for years. For example, Harman did, for the recent Levinson offerings. They used Mack Technologies:

http://www.macktech.com

There are others. Their primary customers are in medical and defense.

As for the rest of your comments, if you read mine you would see that I consider the No33 to be a silly tour de force of over-engineering. But no, you'd just rather have a bad case of diarrhea of the finger tips.

Here's a thought - engage brain first, fingers second.

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[jsrtheta]

Passionate when you have no idea what you're talking about. What a great addition to the forums!

"... a grand in parts..." That's ridiculous.

Before I put you on my ignore list, let's a get a couple of things straight.

When this amp was designed and manufactured the Levinson brand wasn't owned by Harman, it was owned by a little company called Madrigal, who specialized in high-end audio. Low-volume stuff.

Levinson didn't get the 40% dealer mark-up, the dealer did. Levinson got (if my guess is correct), 16,500 * 60% = $9900.

There was (and still is) a small industry in the US that specializes in the assembly of relatively small lots of electronics for the defense industry and medical equipment. They're not about advanced technologies per se, they're about full-custom, low quantities, and super quality. Some companies in the high-end audio industry have used these contract manufacturers for years. For example, Harman did, for the recent Levinson offerings. They used Mack Technologies:

http://www.macktech.com

There are others. Their primary customers are in medical and defense.

As for the rest of your comments, if you read mine you would see that I consider the No33 to be a silly tour de force of over-engineering. But no, you'd just rather have a bad case of diarrhea of the finger tips.

Here's a thought - engage brain first, fingers second.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Glad to be here.

If the amp was built in 1990 or after, Harman built it. That's when they bought Levinson.

Apparently you get a kick out of audio porn. Bully for you.

Of course, you aren't reading this, because I'm on your "ignore" list, and doubtless I'm in fine company.

Wouldn't want to sully the ears of such an expert as you. You might learn something, and we couldn't have that.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Glad to be here.

If the amp was built in 1990 or after, Harman built it. That's when they bought Levinson.

Apparently you get a kick out of audio porn. Bully for you.

Of course, you aren't reading this, because I'm on your "ignore" list, and doubtless I'm in fine company.

Wouldn't want to sully the ears of such an expert as you. You might learn something, and we couldn't have that.

Yup, there it is, right in the owner's manual. A Harman company. I didn't realize the acquisition happened that early, and I was wrong.

On the rest of it, you're still clueless. I'm only answering to admit my error. Back to ignoring you.

 

[Art Vandelay]

All the common power conditioners I've seen seem to not regulate the frequency. Are there any good/reliable units that would ensure constant output of 60Hz power?

Thanks!

For a tidy sum, sure.
https://www.psaudio.com/product-category/ac-regenerators/